For those who wish to dish out on Christianity - Page 51 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #**751** 08-04-2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

If they are right so is the doctrine of every other religion on earth.

How can that be? Their belief includes exclusivity of salvation.

B

Botnst · #**752** 08-04-2008, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonkovich

well - to think i took all this seriously.

should have known you were all just performing.

after all, who could believe in all this foolishness.

Shoot, I take it seriously enough. I just saw an opportunity for a clever little play on words. You're still going to hell.

B

Botnst · #**753** 08-04-2008, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Yup, what if these guys are right and all you Jesus worshipers are going to burn in hell?

Supporters of the Islamic Defence Front stage a demonstration in Jakarta, Indonesia, demanding the disbandment of an Islamic sect they believe to be heretical.

That's a tough one to reconcile. I think that Christians say that Muslims are misguided. And vice-versa.

tonkovich · #**754** 08-04-2008, 09:29 PM

you know, i must be dreaming.

why do all you people care about, let alone believe in, philosophies espoused hundreds of years ago, when people believed the sun revolved around the earth, frogs spontaneously grew from ponds, witches and warlocks and epileptics were possessed by satan, the earth was flat, etc.

we are a bit more sophisticated now, and while we certainly can't explain everything, we know better than to sacrifice someone every time there's an eclipse, so the sun god won't be angry at us.

lets be honest with ourselves - if i told you i had been raised from the dead and heard the voice of "god" - hopefully you would get the men in white coats. fast.

MS Fowler · #**755** 08-04-2008, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chetwesley

Here is what I don't understand about believing that the whole bible is the word of God: The bible has been translated, and then translated from translations, and then words altered for more contemporary meaning.

When you translate something (either to another language or to a more updated form of the same language), you loose subtle bits of the meaning, even in some cases changing the meaning of whole sentences, this can be especially so in texts which use analogy and poetic language.

Even the very simple term "God" was considered a name that humans were not worthy of saying, inconceivable by the mind of humans, in the original Hebrew. This creates a very different view of God than the way the word is used and thought of now. The common word for God in the Hebrew old testament is YVHV (which translates roughly to "I will be" or "I am thet I am"). Hebrew is a very complex language with a lot of correlations between letters and numbers, and other aspects not found in English. It is a more mystical and religion-centric language than English by nature, and contains subtleties that can't be translated into other languages with all the richness that is there in Hebrew. Even in that simple example, you can see the more mystical meaning inherent in one single word.

Making the assumption the the whole bible is actually the word of God, how can we be certain that the Bible as it is presented now represents the way that God originally intended it?

Regarding translations; you make a good argument for learning Greek and Hebrew! Seriously, there are enough commentaries and study helps, that anyone who wants to understand the original meaning can easily do just that. Actually, translations done by committees are actually to be preferred over those done by an individual as the committee keeps the translation rather more "honest".
But, at least in English, I cannot think of a truly bad or unfaithful translation. Some read better than others, some use more familar English than others, but all of the communicate.

Is it somehow surprising that understanding the Bible requires effort? People spend lifetimes studying just English Lit; why should you expect that understanding God's Word is simpler.

The Westminster Confession of Faith, which is the historic formulation for Presbyterians, says that while some Scripture requires a lot of study, the parts of Scripture, necessary for salvation are easy to comprehend.
Again, its a matter of choice; not a lack of knowledge that keeps one from believing.

Gurkha · #**756** 08-04-2008, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

How can that be? Their belief includes exclusivity of salvation.

B

So does others............renouncement of earthly pleasures for path to salvation.

Gurkha · #**757** 08-04-2008, 09:38 PM

Why can't others have Gods and only limit the right to Christians? Or why not keep your beliefs and I keep mine so that there would be no unpleasant clashes. Best would be to keep it in your heart but sadly we humans are never ready for that.

BENZ-LGB · #**758** 08-04-2008, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chetwesley

The problem is that there are and have been many people throughout the world who have never been exposed to Christianity, or who have grown up entrenched in a society which completely revolves around other religious ideas which they are unlikely to ever escape.

Interesting concept. I too have wondered what would become of people who died before they had a chance to be exposed to Christianity.

Not sure I have an answer. If anyone has an answer I would like to hear it.

MS Fowler · #**759** 08-04-2008, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor

There is a problem with their thinking though... Their implication is that ONLY they are right and everyone else is wrong. That's a judgement call by christianity itself and their own bible says it's wrong to sit in judgement of others. They're violating their own rules of conduct.

It's an elitists attitude, pretty much like all the rest of the religions on Earth also have. Christianity is no better or different than any of the others. Just a different flavor...

You misquote, and misapply... Christians do not have the power to sentence anyone to Hell. That is clearly God's judgment. Christians can, and should speak God's judgment to the world. There is a difference.
Now, I admit that what I just wrote is an idealized version; in actuality many Christians seem to revel in pronouncing doom to "sinners" Too bad.

The warning about not judging is often misquoted. "Judge not that you be not judged, for with the same judgment, you will be judged." Is a rough, but more complete version from memory. It is a warning that many could profit by.

Botnst · #**760** 08-04-2008, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

So does others............renouncement of earthly pleasures for path to salvation.

I'm having a hard time with the logic, here. Are you saying that the claim of exclusivity is impossible?

Botnst · #**761** 08-04-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonkovich

you know, i must be dreaming.

why do all you people care about, let alone believe in, philosophies espoused hundreds of years ago, when people believed the sun revolved around the earth, frogs spontaneously grew from ponds, witches and warlocks and epileptics were possessed by satan, the earth was flat, etc.

we are a bit more sophisticated now, and while we certainly can't explain everything, we know better than to sacrifice someone every time there's an eclipse, so the sun god won't be angry at us.

lets be honest with ourselves - if i told you i had been raised from the dead and heard the voice of "god" - hopefully you would get the men in white coats. fast.

Look at yourself and it explains everything.

If you don't care, why are you wasting time telling other people not to care?

B

BENZ-LGB · #**762** 08-04-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

It is good that you can admit that you can care about someone's beliefs. Let me ask you, why do you find communism abhorrent as a view in another?

Communists executed family members, imprisoned others and stole my country.

Any doctrine that deprives man of the right to freely think and freely act upon those thoughts is abhorrent by definition.

I could go on, but I do not wish to turn this thread into a referendum on Communism.

MS Fowler · #**763** 08-04-2008, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Two problems with that. We all sin because God created a world with original sin in it. The fact that we each hold the key to salvation is irrelevant. An omnipotent God created the world the way it is and then blames us for our actions in the world he created with eternal punishment. God is responsible for these conditions and not us. God is the one who deserves punishment and not humans.

Christianity does not say that we each hold the key to salvation. We can only have faith if God gives us grace, so salvation is in the hands of God not us.

The whole shebang only makes sense if the we accept the view that God is the absolute source of moral value and whatever God does and commands is right solely because God commands it.

I think maintaining independent moral judgment is central to human existence and my moral compass tells me that if I punish my own child for behavior which I was responsible for creating, just isn't fair.

That's why I think the orthodox Christian God should be opposed on moral principle.

I understand your view. Seems like a pretty straight-forward stating of what is essentially humanism.
We disagree, agreeably so (again).

MS Fowler · #**764** 08-04-2008, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gurkha

Why can't others have Gods and only limit the right to Christians? Or why not keep your beliefs and I keep mine so that there would be no unpleasant clashes. Best would be to keep it in your heart but sadly we humans are never ready for that.

You do, in fact, have your own Gods.
So does everyone else.
Everyone worships at some altar.

Saying that does not mean that all gods or Gods are equal, but you do have that moral choice.

BENZ-LGB · #**765** 08-04-2008, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Your concept of free will is a concept held by a modern lawyer in a democratic society. It is not the concept of free will associated with orthodox views of original sin and human freedom. For Augustine and other very influential Church Fathers, free will simply meant that you got to think about choices in your own head, but you couldn't choose anything other than what God had predetermined that you would do.

I don't necessarily agree with your view that predetermination is the original (or prevailing) view of Christinaity. I think that my concept of freewill is mor ein line with mainstream Christian thought. A lot of water has gone under the bridge (or over the dam) since the time of St. Augustine.

Some Christian writers indeed held that view. It is not my view nor is it the view of people that I know.

If predetermination was indeed the standard M.O., then the concept of freewill is a sham. That, to put it in the current vernacular, would suck big time.