It's the only way to prevent our troops from freezing to death!

Among the most arresting debates Wednesday came when Rep. Patrick Murphy, D-Pa., a first-term congressman and the only Iraq war veteran in Congress, accused a witness of implying that U.S. service members weren't professional enough to handle serving with homosexuals.

"You're saying you don't trust our military professionals to serve openly with people who might be different," Murphy said angrily to Elaine Donnelly, president of the Center for Military Readiness, a nonprofit that says it promotes certain military personnel policies.

"I think that's an insult," Murphy said.

Donnelly denied that, insisting that "forced cohabitation" and resulting "sexual tension ... will hurt discipline and morale."

"People are human, people have sexual feelings and they're not perfect," she said. "Prejudice is wrong, but feelings about sexuality are different."

Donnelly contended that if the law were repealed the number of HIV-positive service members would probably increase.

Rep. Vic Snyder, D-Ark., a Vietnam veteran and medical doctor, called that comment "so inappropriate" and suggested that Donnelly advocate for the military to recruit only lesbians, who he said have a low incidence of HIV.

Another gAy agenda...................

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Matt (SD,CA)

1984 300SD.. White/Chrome Bunts..Green

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Global warming...Doing my part, Smokin da hippies..

Fight the good fight!......

Sure is. Damn, you caught us plotting and planning. Just like gay marriage. Of course the ultimate goal is gay world domination, since we're breeding like rabbits that should not take much longer.

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TXBill



Former owner of a few diesel MB cars
1998 Lexus ES 300 In Chicago We Trust

Gee and here I thought they just wanted to be treated with the same respect everyone else is entitled too. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Should we round them up at dawn and shoot them or just pick them off one at a time?

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Sent from an agnostic abacus

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- With out god, life is everything.
- God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance that's getting smaller and smaller as time moves on..." Neil DeGrasse Tyson
- You can pray for me, I'll think for you.
- When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Well, I think the more traditional method has been one at a time. It's more suspenseful that way and you know us gays like us some drama.

Also wanted to pass on a link to a young friend's website. He reminds me of a gay Tracy Chapman. Some of his songs may be a bit difficult to understand if you've got a str8t POV, but he's got a beautiful voice and he's been through a lot of ***** for his young years.

www.jaybrannan.com

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TXBill



Former owner of a few diesel MB cars
1998 Lexus ES 300 In Chicago We Trust

I got sad when I read his bio.

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Iirc gays can serve, don't ask don't tell. The militaries purpose is to kill people and break things if there is ever a need for gay pride parades go-go dancers, hair stylists or barracks decorators go for it.

I'm sympathetic to the gays but its hard to stay alive on the battlefieldn there's no need for social engineering to complicate the mission.

Agenda...... So I guess first it was the women's agenda... Then the black agenda.. Now the gay agenda... If you don't think like me, act like me and behave like me, you have an agenda. Come on..........

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Do I miss being a service advisor ???

My only issue would be with closet gays; that's not a good thing in the military.

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I think it's moronic to discharge qualified people because of their sexuality. Don't remember the exact numbers I heard a few days ago but it was something like 12,000 openly gay people being discharged or terminated since "Don't ask, Don't tell" was enacted. Included were Arabic translators so the FBI is down to some absurd number like 50.

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Sharing my partner's 2012 Forte 5dr SX til I find my next 123 or 126..
-
Do I miss being a service advisor ???

It's a difficult issue for folks. On the one hand, in this country we have a fundamental belief in equality of opportunity. On the other hand, we have a military that for its most effective function requires uniformity and trust and loyalty well before equality. That is why it has a separate justice system that relaxes the Bill of Rights, for example. Actions or words that nobody notices in civilian life can get you serious jail time in the military. Also, the term, "mission" is totally different in the military and outside. In civilian life a mission or a mission statement is a sort of goal thingie that is a good thing to remember. In the military, it is literally your life. In my experience the differences are incomprehensible and alien to people who have never served.

Most people in the military are between 18 and 25 years old. They are in for a few years of intense active duty and then return to "the world". These youngsters are at a very vulnerable stage of maturity while physically, they are in their prime years. The military gives them a tuned-up and a focus. Individually these kids are no different from civilians except in teh most superficial ways. But put them in a unit (a concept alien to non-military) and they become a machine. It is a wonderful, terrible thing to watch a mob turn into a unit and the difference is immediately obvious when it happens.

That age group is sexually charged-up and emotionally vulnerable. They must absolutely trust their comrades or they will may die. Confused loyalties are death to unit effectiveness and thus, a prescription for death of the individuals.

Can gays serve effectively in the military? Certainly. Way back in my day of service there were some gays on my ship. This was well before the official, "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Most of those guys were loyal and competent and so, indistinguishable crew members. One or 2 were career enlisted (dunno about officers). But gay sailors who couldn't keep their peckers in their pants were not tolerated by the crew, never mind the command. Those guys were miserable and made everybody around them miserable. They rarely lasted more than a few months before they were discharged from the Navy. Even the other gay sailors didn't like'em.

Would having openly gay sailors affect unit cohesion? Unquestionably. It sure affected unitary cohesion when the military was ordered to racially integrate. Would the military recover from it? Probably. But it would be quite a different military just as the military of today ain't your grandpappy's military.

Racial integration has resulted in a whole initiative in the military previously unknown -- racial sensitivity training. Had it remained restricted to blacks then race would not even be mentioned today and they'd all be driving trucks and waiting tables. IMO the military would also have lost a tremendous capability. Nowadays we (most of us) accept that as a simple statement of fact. back in the 1950's that was extraordinarily radical.

What's the experience of NATO allies that have openly gay military's? I'll bet somebody somewhere has conducted a study of unit effectiveness of those NATO members. I have never heard of such a study. You'd think it would be well known.

B

Thank you for making my day better I haven't laughed out loud in a while

-J

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The FBI is not the military and have their own rules.

Bot -- your post is comprehensive and very well reasoned. I would take issue only with the statement above (assuming your assertion is that openly gay sailors would NEGATIVELY affect cohesion). My old man's MO, in his days as a commander, was to call gay airmen in and just ask them, point blank, if they were "out." If they said no, he gave them a choice: let's call your folks, and you can clear that up right now (and keep right on serving with my blessing), or you can resign your security clearance. Same reason the military checks personal debt and such before granting higher-level security clearances.

As you said, though, openly gay soldiers/sailors/airmen who can't keep it in their pants are probably going to cause problems, open or otherwise. Human nature.

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1992 300D 2.5T
1980 Euro 300D (sadly, sold)
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1974 Triumph TR6
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I see that as being more an issue of some people bringing sexual behavior into an environment where it is not appropriate instead of being a "gay/straight" issue. From your personal experience, gays in the military are not (and I can't believe I'm about to use this word in this context) a homogeneous group and exhibit differences in social behavior. This doesn't seem all that different from someone in an office sexually harassing other employees. The behavior is not appropriate for that venue. In this day and age, those people get fired, and rightly so. The same should hold true for the military.

I have some military experience (although not the same extent you have, from what I've read of your posts), so I understand the differences between civilian and military life that you pointed out. I also understand that 18-25 year old males are not renowned for tolerance of anything different, and that being in an environment where sameness is the goal will only exacerbate that trait. And maybe I'm seeing this with the added wisdom that age provides, but if I was in combat I would much rather serve with someone I can count on to perform correctly when everything goes to hell, regardless of who it is they want to spoon with at night.

As you said, it is a complicated issue.

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Jonathan

2011 Mazda2
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