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#1
10-12-2008, 03:15 PM
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Yet another gay marriage thread
Read this in the NY Times and thought it would be an interesting discussion starter. FWIW, I have no problem with any number of rational adults entering into long-term contractual relationships. I think gov should get out of marriage regulations altogether and stick with contracts.
B -------- Using Biology, Not Religion, to Argue Against Same-Sex Marriage By RAY RIVERA and CHRISTINE STUART Patricia and Wesley Galloway could not have children of their own. Yet for them, the essence of marriage is rooted in procreation. “It takes a man and a woman to create children and thus create a family,” Mrs. Galloway, 60, told a legislative panel in Connecticut last year as it was considering a bill to legalize same-sex marriage. The bill never went to a vote, but on Friday the Connecticut Supreme Court eliminated the need for a bill when it struck down the state’s civil union law and ruled that same-sex couples have a constitutional right to marry. The decision was cheered by gay couples who argued that civil unions, despite giving them the same rights as married couples, were something less than marriage. But it has caused consternation among opponents of gay marriage, many of whom, like the Galloways, say their objections are not based on religion or morality, but in nature. The Galloways represent one side of a debate that is often charged by undercurrents of bigotry and religious belief. The court’s ruling on Friday went on at length about the history of discrimination against gay people. While they are Christians, the Galloways say they refuse to use religion to defend their view of marriage because it just muddies things. And they insist they are accepting of everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. By protecting heterosexual marriage, what “we’re trying to do is protect the foundation of society,” Mrs. Galloway, a volunteer worker from Trumbull, Conn., said in a telephone interview on Saturday. “Everyone who disagrees is automatically labeled a right-wing bigot,” she said. Her husband added, “How can you be a bigot when you’re looking out for society as a whole?” Connecticut joined California and Massachusetts as the only states to legalize gay marriage, adding to the long-running debate over the definition of marriage and who should be entitled to it. On one side are people who believe that marriage is the sanctifying of love and commitment between two people, regardless of gender. For others, like the Galloways, marriage encourages a long-term relationship between a man and a woman as a framework for caring for their children. In such a construct, in their view, the population is replenished, and children are raised responsibly and are less likely to be a social and financial burden on the state. Justice Peter T. Zarella, who was in the minority in Friday’s 4-to-3 decision, suggested the same in his dissenting opinion. “The ancient definition of marriage as the union of one man and one woman has its basis in biology, not bigotry,” he wrote, adding, “As many courts have recognized, the primary societal good advanced by this ancient institution is responsible procreation.” Both sides are armed with sociological studies: one set showing that children prosper better with a mother and father; the other showing that children of same-sex parents are just as healthy and well-adjusted. Connecticut began allowing gay couples to adopt eight years ago. For the Galloways, the notion that same-sex couples should not marry because they cannot have children is complicated by their own story. They married nearly 17 years ago, and tried to have children. When they couldn’t conceive, they became foster parents in the hope of adopting. “The fact that we as a couple married later in life and tried to have children of our own, but were unable, we probably value children more than most people who didn’t have to spend as much time thinking about it,” said Mr. Galloway, 48, a certified public accountant. He said that all that reflection, in addition to parenting classes they have taken, had only reinforced their belief in traditional marriage, and that children are better off in a stable environment with a mother and a father. Mr. Galloway, whose father died when he was 3, said being raised solely by women — his mother and his aunts — hindered his development and altered his sense of self-worth. “I didn’t know how I was supposed to behave as a man because I didn’t have that interaction,” he said. He said he still had difficulty developing friendships with most men. The notion that gender roles are unimportant in raising children is “bunk,” added Mrs. Galloway. “It is not an accident that it takes a man and a woman coming together to create a child,” she said. On the other hand, Anne Stanback, executive director of Love Makes a Family, a group that supports gay marriage, says numerous studies show there is no difference in the way children develop mentally and physically in same-sex households. “It’s the quality of parenting, not the gender of the parents,” she said. For now, Friday’s decision has set off a renewed push for a constitutional convention that could start the process for outlawing gay marriage through a referendum. The state’s Roman Catholic bishops said in a statement after the ruling that they would be “calling on the Catholic people of our state to vote ‘Yes’ ” on a Nov. 4 ballot initiative to establish a convention. Maggie Gallagher, president of the National Organization for Marriage, a group set up expressly to fight the movement toward gay marriage, said the decision could also spur action to pass constitutional amendments in California, Florida and Arizona that would define marriage as being between a man and a woman. “I think everyone that feels outraged by this Supreme Court decision is going to take renewed energy that we have to rein in the courts,” Ms. Gallagher said. 
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#2
10-12-2008, 05:07 PM
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The argument that family is the "foundation of our society" is getting weak considering that that "foundation" fails at an alarming rate. Statistics show the divorce rate is down overall tho. Gay "marriage" or whatever you want to call it will not be the downfall of society or religion. Where I work is on the edge of where the local gay community congregates. I have many a gay/lesbian client as well as many partnered couples with children, either from prior marriages or like one lesbian couple, recently adopted.
From my experience, these children are every bit as, if not better, adjusted than children of my straight friends either together or going thru divorce. Parenting skills are not exclusive to heterosexuals. When criticizing my closest friend of 20+ years over allowing his 9 year old son stay up til damn near midnight on school nights, I got the standard "You don't have kids" answer. My response: "Gary, I don't recall you or Kim getting PhD's in child rearing. You simply f***ed and had a kid (2). How does that make you any more qualified than me ?" Being gay or straight, parent or non parent does not make you any more or less qualified than the next person, gay, straight or otherwise.
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Sharing my partner's 2012 Forte 5dr SX til I find my next 123 or 126.. - Do I miss being a service advisor ??? 
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#3
10-12-2008, 05:55 PM
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I personally don't believe that most of the objection to legal gay marriage is on moral grounds. I believe it's financial; insurance companies don't want to be forced into covering anyone they don't currently have to. If 10's of thousands of gay's get married and are able to add thier new spouse to existing policies the ins. co's will suffer. That just me though, I believe almost all these type of laws can be linked to money. Look at the laws against prostitution, it all comes down to morals. I believe it's all about money; money the government isn't getting their cut of.
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1993 300E 2.8 185k miles 2006 Mustang Convertible 4.0 Eaton Supercharged
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#4
10-12-2008, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08 1985 300TD 185k+ 1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03 1985 409d 65k--sold 06 1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car 1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11 1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper 1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4 1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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#5
10-12-2008, 06:08 PM
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How Queer ................ Queer quote:..."You simply f***ed and had a kid" See Queers...Cant have kids....Why??..Cause it's un-natural..AKA male/male/female/female..........GET IT??...There is a much HIGHER order than "YOUR" perverted debauchery........ 
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Matt (SD,CA) 1984 300SD.. White/Chrome Bunts..Green 1997 2500 Dodge Ram 5.9 Cummins 12 Valve 36 PSI of Boost = 400+hp & 800+tQ .. ..Greenspeed 2004 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 Quad Cab Cummins 5.9 H.O "596hp/1225tq  " 6 spd. Man. Leather Heated seats/Loaded..Flame Red....GREENSPEEDGlobal warming...Doing my part, Smokin da hippies..  Fight the good fight!......
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#6
10-12-2008, 06:13 PM
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Naturally, we should get eaten. Hopefully you get to have a few kids first, helping to perpetuate the species. And if there is indeed a "higher order," I'm 100% confident that you have the wrong one.
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#7
10-12-2008, 06:28 PM
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Oh My........  ...I'm 100% confident that you have the wrong one.. So "YOU" think queers can have kids?.....Nut job!...AKA..The truth is not in you!.. Sad!..... 
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Matt (SD,CA) 1984 300SD.. White/Chrome Bunts..Green 1997 2500 Dodge Ram 5.9 Cummins 12 Valve 36 PSI of Boost = 400+hp & 800+tQ .. ..Greenspeed 2004 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 Quad Cab Cummins 5.9 H.O "596hp/1225tq " 6 spd. Man. Leather Heated seats/Loaded..Flame Red....GREENSPEEDGlobal warming...Doing my part, Smokin da hippies.. Fight the good fight!......
Last edited by Matt SD300; 10-12-2008 at 06:51 PM.
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#8
10-12-2008, 07:13 PM
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Reading and writing are far more unnatural than homosexuality because no other species reads and writes but there are other species with homosexual individuals. Also, reading and writing has to be taught, unlike speech and only came into existence late in the history of homo sapiens.
Hence, since MattSD bases his religious views on a written text, his perversion is greater than homosexuality.
__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08 1985 300TD 185k+ 1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03 1985 409d 65k--sold 06 1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car 1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11 1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper 1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4 1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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#9
10-12-2008, 07:14 PM
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Your version of this truth is not in me, and of that not only do I readily agree, but I am very happy about the situation. That's because your "world-view" is wrong.
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#10
10-12-2008, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
A-Hole quote- "See Queers...Cant have kids....Why??..Cause it's un-natural..AKA male/male/female/female..........GET IT??...There is a much HIGHER order than "YOUR" perverted debauchery........ "Since ."You simply f***ed and had a kid" was not uttered to Gary by a "QUEER", you're a little off track on my beliefs.. I suppose it's my "PERVERTED ORDER OF DEBAUCHERY" that has orphanages all over the world well stocked... Again, my point, being higher on your version of the "order" doth not a great parent make sunshine... GET IT ?!?! 
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Sharing my partner's 2012 Forte 5dr SX til I find my next 123 or 126.. - Do I miss being a service advisor ???
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#11
10-12-2008, 07:36 PM
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#12
10-12-2008, 07:38 PM
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Facts show that same-sex couples are fine parents
By Michael J. Rosenfeld Marriages of same-sex couples in California represent pride and happiness for the couples, but also foreshadow a potentially contentious political debate in November. Every election season when the issue of same-sex marriage is considered, opponents of such unions raise doubts about whether society should encourage gay couples to raise children. "Same-sex marriage poses serious risks to the welfare of children," declared one-time special prosecutor Kenneth Starr in a 2006 California amicus brief on behalf of several religious groups arguing against same-sex marriage. When considering the proposition to amend the California Constitution to prohibit same-sex marriage this November, voters need to be prepared to see through such misleading campaigns. There is virtually no scholarly evidence that same-sex marriage is bad for children. In fact, several dozen studies conclude just the opposite – and a new analysis of census data confirms that point. Children raised by same-sex couples are a very small minority of all children. Less than 1 percent of all children in the United States are being raised by a same-sex couple, and the numbers were even smaller in the past. Of the 9.5 million minors in California in 2006, about 58,000 were being raised by same-sex couples. Nationwide, there were 74 million children, of whom about 419,000 were being raised by same-sex couples in 2006. Small populations, such as children raised by same-sex couples, are inherently difficult to study. As a result, prior studies of children raised by same-sex couples have focused on small samples of parents recruited from lesbian parenting groups or from sperm banks. Nonetheless, the more than 40 published small sample studies find nearly unanimously that same-sex couples do as good a job as any other type of family in raising healthy children. Opponents of same-sex marriage complain about the non-random sampling and the small sample size of these studies. By casting doubt on this body of research, they claim that we do not know enough about same-sex couple parents, and that therefore it is premature to grant same-sex couples the right to marry. In their friend of the court brief before California's Supreme Court, conservative family scholars including most notably James Q. Wilson claimed, "We do not have a single study based on nationally representative data that can tell us how the typical child raised from birth by a same-sex couples fares." But, in fact, there are nationally representative studies of children raised by same-sex couples. The public use files of the 2000 U.S. census contain information about thousands of individual children living with same-sex couple parents, and a million children living with other family types. We can tell, by analyzing the census data, whether children raised by same-sex couples are any more likely to be held back in elementary school than children from other families. If being raised by same-sex couple parents were such a profound disadvantage as critics claim, we should expect children raised by same-sex couples to do poorly in elementary school. The census data show that children raised by same-sex couples are just as likely as children raised by heterosexual couples to make normal progress through elementary school, given the same levels of parental education and income. What's more, children living with stable families have a powerful advantage over children without consistent family commitment and support. Foster children are twice as likely to be held back in school, and children living in group quarters are three times as likely to be held back in school compared with children living with permanent families. So we know that same-sex parents are raising children successfully. Given that raising children is hard work for any family, why not provide these couples and their children with the respect and dignity that official marriage confers? Fifty-eight thousand children stand to benefit from same-sex marriage in California, at no financial or social cost to the state. That's a pro-family agenda we should all support. About the writer: * Michael J. Rosenfeld is an assistant professor of sociology at Stanford University and the author of "The Age of Independence: Interracial Unions, Same-Sex Unions and the Changing American Family," Harvard University Press, 2007. He is also a senior research associate on the Council on Contemporary Families.
__________________
Sharing my partner's 2012 Forte 5dr SX til I find my next 123 or 126.. - Do I miss being a service advisor ???
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#13
10-12-2008, 07:41 PM
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And as for this topic in general...
__________________
Sharing my partner's 2012 Forte 5dr SX til I find my next 123 or 126.. - Do I miss being a service advisor ???
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#15
10-12-2008, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
__________________
Matt (SD,CA) 1984 300SD.. White/Chrome Bunts..Green 1997 2500 Dodge Ram 5.9 Cummins 12 Valve 36 PSI of Boost = 400+hp & 800+tQ .. ..Greenspeed 2004 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 Quad Cab Cummins 5.9 H.O "596hp/1225tq " 6 spd. Man. Leather Heated seats/Loaded..Flame Red....GREENSPEEDGlobal warming...Doing my part, Smokin da hippies.. Fight the good fight!......
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