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  #76  
Old 12-29-2008, 03:45 PM
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Blame sure does a lot of good.

In the end, one side has more to loose from the failure of the two state solution than the other.

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  #77  
Old 12-29-2008, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgburg View Post
So? They are words I typed...I didn't "cut & paste" those words from articles that I've read, words that I heard from folks I talked to or worse yet, images I've seen on the idiot boxes...don't forget, I work in the media and I have more than enough contempt and disdain for what passes as "news" these days...I've had that bile stored for a LONG TIME...so don't worry about me being led around by the nose by some unseen, all-knowing force of mis-information...I dodge it on a daily basis...
I've been trying to take it lightly, spray a little wit on it, rather than emerging on a spree of personal slander.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgburg View Post
I'm just a bit curious as to why you seem to feel that I'm being led by those that want to deceive.......
We're all subject to deception, one way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgburg View Post
and why it seems you have a "slight" distaste for what's passing as protectionism for Israel....
I'm glad you phrase it this way. There is no easy answer, but in short, I think it is no longer America's responisbility. Beyond that, I don't recognize the true intent to solve and redeem a "normal" situation. From neither side.
So, were is the continued investment of a constantly failing venture going to take us?
I even dare to say, I fail to see gratitude for America's protectionism.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mgburg View Post
, I'd be wondering WHY the UN placed Israel in its current location way back in 1948, assuming they HOPED Israel would survive.

Apparently, against all that the UN hoped for...Israel is still on the map...
I don't get it. They hoped it will survive .... against all they hoped for...?
Besides that, if I am not mistaken, it was the place they were asking for, didn't they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgburg View Post
And apparently, that feel and hate has never really gone away...eh?
The absence of gratitude serves very well as a fertile soil for hate.
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  #78  
Old 12-29-2008, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carleton Hughes View Post
This forum's full of crackers.
Yeah. I am one of them ...
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  #79  
Old 12-29-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A264172 View Post
Blame sure does a lot of good.

In the end, one side has more to loose from the failure of the two state solution than the other.
2 thumbs up.
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  #80  
Old 12-29-2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tankdriver View Post
...
People often lose sight of the forest for the leaves when talking about Israel.
Most here seem to think Israel is justified in killing over 200 Palestinians in retaliation for the killing of one Israeli. If Israel is justified in retaliation, how then are not the Palestinians justified in retaliating for their deaths?

In order to find justification for retaliation, then one must find the first death resulting in conflict between a jew and palestinian. Good luck with that. If you can't find it, then retaliatory right is determined by which side you happen to be on, not by justice. That makes the Palestinians no worse than the Israelis.

What is the goal of Israel's retaliation? It was an insufficient action for genocide. Their enemy has demonstrated that they will not be cowed. If the goal is punitive, then it is difficult to hold onto just-ness when not only they did not target the specific offenders, but also killed 230some more people than the offenders did.
One thing is definitely not the goal: to stop terror attacks.

In any case, all of that misses the point. Israel was created, and later seized more, territory from the Palestinians. The Palestinians lost. The Israelis oppress them. Many Palestinians continue to fight. Israelis fight back. Palestinians can't win because they are outmatched, so some of them kill civilians. They know it's wrong, so they commit suicide at the same time to they don't have to live with themselves. Israelis kill the ones fighting, sometimes the ones not fighting, and continue to oppress and make their lives hell on earth, prompting them to seek a better life in heaven. That desire is channeled and manipulated by power mongers.

Good points. Let me take them one at a time, OK?


Point 1: Is Israel justified in killing 200 Palestininams for each Israeli killed? Of course not. However, How many Israelis have been killed in the rocket attacks so far? Here is an interesting link showint the deaths in Israel (19)and the amount of rockets launched against them so far(1888). The HAMAS guys can't seem to do much withtheir rockets! http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/08/charts_photos_i.html

Point 2: Who shot first? The Arabs have been killing Jewish settlers since back in the 1920's when the British turned a blind eye to what the Arabs were doing in the Trans-Jordan. One must remember that there were always Jews in the area even under the Ottoman Empire. While the Ottomans kept everybody under control, when the British took over after WWI (Under a League of Nations Mandate), they allowed the Arabs to start killing Jews.

Point 3: See the article I posted by Debbie Schussel. It is eye opening.

Point 4: Isreal was NOT created from Palestine. There was no such natin as Palestine, Israel or Jordan until 1948 when the UN carved up the British Mandate of Trans-Jordan into three countries with Jordan being the biggest and Israel being the smallest. If I remember correctly Israel existed for 12 hours before the Arabs invaded. By Arabs I mean Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Lebonese. See the attached map. The Arabs thought that the Jews would do what they did under Hitler -- DIE MEEKLY. Who knew that they would figt for their survival and even keep their independence? From 1948 until 1967 Israel existed, but Palestine was under Egyptian or Jordanian occupation (see map). In 1967, the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis (remember they were all the UAR then) invaded again. Jordan joined in by shelling Jerusalem. Once again the Israelis did not go quietly into that dark night, but fought back -- and won! This time they took the territory that the invasion had come from (The West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights) They also took the Sinai Penninsula from Egypt. (See map)

Once again, in 1973 the Egyptians and the Syrians attacked Israel. Once again Israel beat them (see map)

Now you would think that after being atacked four times, the Israelis would never give up any of the territory they had taken. After all it gave them what they desperately needed room to defend themselve in. However, after the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt, they gav the Sinai back to Egypt. They aare also negotiating to give back some of the Golan Heights to Syria - if Syria acknowleges Israel's right to exist.

In all this, there was never any atempt by Egypt or Jordan to set up a Palestinian state in the territories they had held from 1949 until 1967. Only ISRAEL has tried to give the Palestinians a homeland. Imagine that!
Attached Thumbnails
... and now it happened.-map_unpartition.jpg   ... and now it happened.-arabinvasion1948.jpg   ... and now it happened.-armistice-lines-1949.jpg   ... and now it happened.-1967.jpg   ... and now it happened.-1974.jpg  

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  #81  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:00 PM
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More maps...

Here are some more maps to look at...

Also here is a link to terror attacks inside Israel over from 2000-2004.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/2000-2004-+Major+Terror+Attacks.htm

I also stuck in two old maps of the Ottoman Territories for historical perspective.
Attached Thumbnails
... and now it happened.-1982.jpg   ... and now it happened.-disengagementgaza.jpg   ... and now it happened.-disengagementnsamaria.jpg   ... and now it happened.-ottoman_eng_1.jpg   ... and now it happened.-turkpa1.gif  

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  #82  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels View Post
In all this, there was never any atempt by Egypt or Jordan to set up a Palestinian state in the territories they had held from 1949 until 1967. Only ISRAEL has tried to give the Palestinians a homeland. Imagine that!
The truth is a *****, ain't she. She will, however, set you free.
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  #83  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels View Post
... However, after the 1979 peace agreement with Egypt, they gav the Sinai back to Egypt. They aare also negotiating to give back some of the Golan Heights to Syria - if Syria acknowleges Israel's right to exist. ... In all this, there was never any atempt by Egypt or Jordan to set up a Palestinian state in the territories they had held from 1949 until 1967. Only ISRAEL has tried to give the Palestinians a homeland. Imagine that!
*DING!*

B I N G O !


*DING!*
*DING!*
*DING!*
*DING!*

Someone is reading the history books and not between the lines...
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  #84  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaRondo View Post
I think it is no longer America's responisbility.

Beyond that, I don't recognize the true intent to solve and redeem a "normal" situation. From neither side.

So, were is the continued investment of a constantly failing venture going to take us?

I even dare to say, I fail to see gratitude for America's protectionism.
Since when was it really America's responsibility? America, like any country only takes "responsibility" when they have a stake in the matter. IOW, talk about Dafur and it is WGAS. Talk about the ME and it is an issue of Human Rights, Right and Wrong, Moral and Immoral and all that moralistic rubbish. Bottom line is that if it bothers me, I will find a metaphysical way to sell you the idea that we need to do something. I will never tell you "It's the money, Stupid." even if that is the case. IOW, it is in my intersts to side with you that makes me side with you. Otherwise, you can go string yourself up on the highest tree for all I care.

Palestinian shelling is going to make Israel toe the hard line and send jets in to blow them up. Blowing them up is going to make them shell Israel. Problem is that with the Palestinians not wanting to do a real cease fire for a certain period of time, it is going to make it hard for Israel to want to stop wall building, jetting, etc, etc. I think Iran gets the benefit though. It only sends money and arms to it's pawns, the Palestinians. It is not the Iranians that get missile attacks and what not. In the meantime, the Israelis are too busy with the Palestinians to send jets and ground troops to take out their reactor.

Question is whether we need a fort in that section of wilderness or not. If we don't, screw the Israelis. If we do, we have to keep helping them so they are dependent on us and have to do our bidding. Some of it, at least.

Well, we do have an influence in some of their moves.
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  #85  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaRondo View Post
That fact that I am biased, doesn't mean I can't try to maintain a neutral attitude.

My recommendation:

You need to grow beyond the shores of your pond.
Ah, now I am self-limited because I don't agree with you. Golly, the scales fall from my eyes! I was blind and now I see!
  #86  
Old 12-29-2008, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Ah, now I am self-limited because I don't agree with you. Golly, the scales fall from my eyes! I was blind and now I see!
Somebody can heal blindness? Thought that guy disappeared about 2000 years ago?
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  #87  
Old 12-29-2008, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Ah, now I am self-limited because I don't agree with you. Golly, the scales fall from my eyes! I was blind and now I see!
Hallelujah!!!
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  #88  
Old 12-29-2008, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels View Post
Good points. Let me take them one at a time, OK?


Point 1: Is Israel justified in killing 200 Palestininams for each Israeli killed? Of course not. However, How many Israelis have been killed in the rocket attacks so far? Here is an interesting link showint the deaths in Israel (19)and the amount of rockets launched against them so far(1888). The HAMAS guys can't seem to do much withtheir rockets! http://vitalperspective.typepad.com/vital_perspective_clarity/2006/08/charts_photos_i.html
In the original article posted, this Israeli attack was in response to attacks that killed 1 Israeli and wounded 6. You're right, it seems Hamas is not very good at rocket attacks. Israel on the other hand is extremely good. My point in bringing it up is that retaliatory justification is weak when you kill at a 200:1 ratio.


Quote:
Point 2: Who shot first? The Arabs have been killing Jewish settlers since back in the 1920's when the British turned a blind eye to what the Arabs were doing in the Trans-Jordan. One must remember that there were always Jews in the area even under the Ottoman Empire. While the Ottomans kept everybody under control, when the British took over after WWI (Under a League of Nations Mandate), they allowed the Arabs to start killing Jews.
It's a slippery slope trying to define who was there first, and ultimately it is a pointless endeavor. Before the Ottomans were the Crusaders, who were preceded by Arabs who were preceded by Babylonians who were preceded by Romans, Greeks, Persians, etc..

Quote:
Point 4: Isreal was NOT created from Palestine. There was no such natin as Palestine, Israel or Jordan until 1948 when the UN carved up the British Mandate of Trans-Jordan into three countries with Jordan being the biggest and Israel being the smallest. If I remember correctly Israel existed for 12 hours before the Arabs invaded. By Arabs I mean Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis, and Lebonese. See the attached map.
Palestine is the name of the region, not the name of a country. It was under the control of the Ottoman Turks until WWI. Lawrence of Arabia incited the Arab majority living there to revolt. The Arabs were promised their own lands. Palestine was the territory the allies (european) were to control.
At this point, having already promised the Arabs their own lands, Britain also promised Jews a homeland.
That's when and where it gets f**ked up. There was never concrete borders decided on what country goes where. Nobody really cared because the Brits and French maintained sovereignty over everything. But it's here, not 1948, that the problems began.

One thing is for sure. The Arabs were the majority population under the Ottomans and under the Brits. Between 1919 and 1948, Jewish immigrants flooded the territory that had been not quite defined as the future Jewish country. In fact, Britain imposed immigration rules limiting Jewish immigration to the territory. So the Arabs could not invade the area because they were the ones living there.

Quote:
The Arabs thought that the Jews would do what they did under Hitler -- DIE MEEKLY. Who knew that they would figt for their survival and even keep their independence? From 1948 until 1967 Israel existed, but Palestine was under Egyptian or Jordanian occupation (see map). In 1967, the Egyptians, Syrians, Iraqis (remember they were all the UAR then) invaded again. Jordan joined in by shelling Jerusalem. Once again the Israelis did not go quietly into that dark night, but fought back -- and won! This time they took the territory that the invasion had come from (The West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights) They also took the Sinai Penninsula from Egypt. (See map)
Eventually, the Arabs grew tired of the Jewish immigration and British rule and revolted. They lost. When the Brits said they were leaving, the UN came up with a plan that created an Arab area of Palestine and a separaet Jewish state. The Arabs did not agree to the partition. The Brits left and the 48 war began. After winning it, Israel kept half of what was supposed to be (under the UN plan) the Arab Palestine.


Quote:
In all this, there was never any atempt by Egypt or Jordan to set up a Palestinian state in the territories they had held from 1949 until 1967. Only ISRAEL has tried to give the Palestinians a homeland. Imagine that!
The issue was arab control of lands that they had been living in. The issue was never a question of how much territory should be given to the creation of Israel, such that the rest be called Palestine. If part of Texas is lost, how much of Oklahoma should Olkahomans cede to a new Texas?

Israel has tried to give them bits and pieces spread around in little pockets, surrounded by Israel - and walled off. More like a prison camp than homeland.


We're still missing the forest for the trees though. If Israel had kept to what it stated in its declaration creating the state:
We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
then there would be no desire to suicide bomb. An equal society is a relatively happy one. It's hard to get happy, or at least contented, people to kill themselves with vest bombs.
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  #89  
Old 12-29-2008, 06:39 PM
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If I were an Israeli, I'd love a million-to-one. Bet the Gazanians (Gazites? Gazooks?) are "dying" to better their kill ratio, too.

Whomever thinks that there should be "balance" and "fairness" in a death match is either crazy or has never been in a death match situation.

It is always, always, always preferable for teh enemy to die and friendlies to survive. Doesn't matter if you're Israeli or Gazatian. Kill the other side is what you want.

From the opposite side, you always want the pain to the enemy for inflicting pain on friendlies to be "disproportionately" great. You bomb my mosque, I flatten your Kibbutz. And vice-versa.

In both cases, consistency is paramount. Faltering, second-guessing, seeking accommodation with the enemy is a sure-fire way to encourage the enemy to stay his course. Never offer a carrot unless you have a hell of a stick and are completely prepared and willing to use it. Again and again and again.

On the other hand, if you can't sustain the effort and casualties, giving-up the carrot early saves everybody a lot of pain, death and misery.

B
  #90  
Old 12-29-2008, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tankdriver View Post
The Brits left and the 48 war began. After winning it, Israel kept half of what was supposed to be (under the UN plan) the Arab Palestine.
The problem with what you are saying is that you are thinking it is a boxing match where after the bell rings, you go to your corner and I go to mine. In this case, the winner took the territory after the fight. If the 48 war didn't take place and the Israelis took territory, you have a point. Taking the loser's territory after a fight is pretty common.

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