Who bears ultimate responsibility for civilian casualties? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

MS Fowler · #1 01-05-2009, 06:01 AM

With the renewal of hostilities in Gaza, who bears the responsibility for civilian deaths?
----The Israeli military for shooting/bombing in the Gaza strip?
----Hamas for launching missles from a civilian area?
----The rest of the Arab countries who reefuse to give the Palestinians a homeland, but whip them into a frenzy demanding the extinction of Israel?
---G. Bush? ( Isn't everything his fault?)

t walgamuth · #2 01-05-2009, 06:23 AM

Its definately a tricky question.

I don't have the answer, (though I am pretty W must be doing something wrong someplace on the subject

), I cannot clearly say anything at all about it.

When they start talking about anything regarding the middle east on NPR after about fifteen minutes my eyes start glazing over and I am reaching for the oldies station.

I do think the Israelis do themselves no good in the long run when they massively retaliate indiscriminately to the attacks.

#3 01-05-2009, 07:03 AM

Bush, for not nuking the middle-east 7 years ago.

TimFreeh · #4 01-05-2009, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I do think the Israelis do themselves no good in the long run when they massively retaliate indiscriminately to the attacks.

Israel responds "indiscriminately" to the attacks? Really?

Israel targets specific sites using high tech weapons and seems to do everything possible to limit civilian casualties. Hamas on the other hand seems to do everything they can to maximize civilian casualties (among their own people) by locating ammo storage dumps in mosques and firing at Israel from locations right in the middle of large concentrations of civilians - because they know that collateral damage will be breathlessly reported by NPR, CBS, ABC, CNN, etc,ect,etc.

If you want to call Israel's response "indiscriminate" I'd be curious how you would describe the action of launching unguided missiles at towns and cities in Israel? IIRC Hamas has now fired over 3,000 rockets into Israel (and killed 30 civilians) BEFORE Israel chose to respond.

#5 01-05-2009, 09:05 AM

I personally belive that Hamas (and their backers in Iran and such) has all the responsibility in this one, I completely agree with Timfreeh that Hamas does everything in its power to make more civilian casualites. And Israel should have the right to exist in peace and well sometimes peace is acheived at the end of a sword.

mgburg · #6 01-05-2009, 09:29 AM

As Tim & Tom mentioned, Hamas is #1, #2 & #3 in bearing responsibility...then the Arab nations...no question...

Israel isn't conducting retalitory strikes LIKE Hamas does their bombings...and the key word here (as it always has been) is retalitory.

Two things I noticed on the news last night...

I'm not sure which network it was, but the reporter was asking a guard at one of the closed border crossings into Gaza who was responsible for keeping the crossings closed. The answer was Egypt! Egypt was doing the work of keeping the crossings closed! Albeit it was at the request of Israel...in order to cut off supplies of more rockets and bombing material coming in...not humanitarian aid...rockets and bombs.

And what was in the frame of the photographer...for a few seconds? Trucks lined up...with armed guards around one or two trucks in the backround...

Only guarding TWO trucks? What could possibly be in those trucks that would warrant extra protection..."FooFoo Water" from France? "Beef-flavored" tofu from Japan?

Yah..."humanitarian aid" my a##! RPAs..."Rocket-Propelled Aid" more likely...

Who's looking out for the Gazians?

So, Egypt is "cooperating" with the Israelis...I wonder how Egypt's government leaders are going to enjoy hearing that around the world...that should make some interesting conversation around the table at the next meeting of OPEC...

aklim · #7 01-05-2009, 11:36 AM

How about the "civilians" that are allowing the rockets to be launched in their living areas?

450slcguy · #8 01-05-2009, 12:33 PM

The civilians elected Hamas and knew damn well what Hamas stood for. The civilians got what they wanted, a radical Islamic regime. Now they are paying the price for who they elected. No big surprise there, nor much sympathy from me either.

If the Palestinians want peace and sovereignty, then they should lose their unrealistic demands and negotiate a treaty that will offer them a real chance of statehood and peace. Israel will negotiate concessions to a point, but there are roadblocks that will never be removed. The Palestinians have to realize they do not have the resources nor the power to overcome those roadblocks. If they can't reason beyond their limitations, then they will suffer the consequences.

LUVMBDiesels · #9 01-05-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

The civilians elected Hamas and knew damn well what Hamas stood for. The civilians got what they wanted, a radical Islamic regime. Now they are paying the price for who they elected. No big surprise there, nor much sympathy from me either.

If the Palestinians want peace and sovereignty, then they should lose their unrealistic demands and negotiate a treaty that will offer them a real chance of statehood and peace. Israel will negotiate concessions to a point, but there are roadblocks that will never be removed. The Palestinians have to realize they do not have the resources nor the power to overcome those roadblocks. If they can't reason beyond their limitations, then they will suffer the consequences.

The problem is that HAMAS and Hezbollah do not want any concessions from Israel. They want Israel destroyed and destroyed utterly.The Israelis gave up Gaza and the West Bank, then H&H want Jerusalem. If the Israelis gave up Jerulsalem, and not just the Muslim quarter but the whole city, then H&H will want the Negev. If Israel give up the Negev, then H&H will want the highlands. If the Israelis give up the highlands, then H&H will insist on Tel Aviv. It just goes on and on. The fighting will stop only when there are no Jews left to kill.

tankdriver · #10 01-05-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

Israel responds "indiscriminately" to the attacks? Really?

Israel targets specific sites using high tech weapons and seems to do everything possible to limit civilian casualties. Hamas on the other hand seems to do everything they can to maximize civilian casualties (among their own people) by locating ammo storage dumps in mosques and firing at Israel from locations right in the middle of large concentrations of civilians - because they know that collateral damage will be breathlessly reported by NPR, CBS, ABC, CNN, etc,ect,etc.

If you want to call Israel's response "indiscriminate" I'd be curious how you would describe the action of launching unguided missiles at towns and cities in Israel? IIRC Hamas has now fired over 3,000 rockets into Israel (and killed 30 civilians) BEFORE Israel chose to respond.

400 killed so far, 4 confirmed Hamas terrorists. That's precision like a surgeon operating with a forklift.

Where did you get the 3K/30 civilians number from? First time I've seen it.

aklim · #11 01-05-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

The civilians elected Hamas and knew damn well what Hamas stood for.

It isn't simply electing Hamas that got them in this mess. The issue is that they let Hamas set up launchers and mortar sites in civilian areas. Now, when those same areas get hit, what right have they to complain about civilian casualties?

Botnst · #12 01-05-2009, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

400 killed so far, 4 confirmed Hamas terrorists. That's precision like a surgeon operating with a forklift.

Where did you get the 3K/30 civilians number from? First time I've seen it.

What is a "civilian"? What is a "confirmed terrorist"?

#13 01-05-2009, 01:29 PM

The main problem is that Hamas and half the rest of the middle east refuse to admit that Israel has the right to exist or the Jews to live. Until they are ready to deal with that, then I say let Israel make their point of they have the ability to defend themselves.

LaRondo · #14 01-05-2009, 01:36 PM

I think it's great, for the Germans anyway, since Israel just sealed another part of its history.
Forfeiting the claim, being the inherent victim of indefinite holocausts and expulsions ain't gonna fly so well anymore in the future.

For all the believers, who thought that Sharon is moving Israelis from the Gaza strip, with the intention to return it to Palestinians, ain't gonna fly either, since everybody knew, what happens today, was not a question if, but when.

Sad part seems to be, them Palestinians are being scapegoated, the sacrificial lambs of the game.

What makes the difference for Islamic nations, is to buy time, every day this game continues works in their favor.

Interestingly, one should note the precision timing of the operation.
Just in time during the last days of Bushovski and after they finally ousted Olmert, which leaves Israel currently without an elected government.
Tipsi and Bibi are in charge. Heck what beauty of a military coup!

However, I predict, the day will come when Israel will have to bare it's own responsibility and it won't be pretty.

LaRondo · #15 01-05-2009, 01:43 PM

Btw, it will have to show how successful the Israeli ground operation will be, in terms of "Urban Guerilla Warfare".
They gonna have to break a sweat, I suppose.

But, by then, 'Obama the Savior' will appear and wave the magic wand ... and everybody will go back to the usual regrouping business, until further notice.