Who bears ultimate responsibility for civilian casualties? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

MS Fowler · #1 01-05-2009, 07:01 AM

With the renewal of hostilities in Gaza, who bears the responsibility for civilian deaths?
----The Israeli military for shooting/bombing in the Gaza strip?
----Hamas for launching missles from a civilian area?
----The rest of the Arab countries who reefuse to give the Palestinians a homeland, but whip them into a frenzy demanding the extinction of Israel?
---G. Bush? ( Isn't everything his fault?)

t walgamuth · #2 01-05-2009, 07:23 AM

Its definately a tricky question.

I don't have the answer, (though I am pretty W must be doing something wrong someplace on the subject

), I cannot clearly say anything at all about it.

When they start talking about anything regarding the middle east on NPR after about fifteen minutes my eyes start glazing over and I am reaching for the oldies station.

I do think the Israelis do themselves no good in the long run when they massively retaliate indiscriminately to the attacks.

#3 01-05-2009, 08:03 AM

Bush, for not nuking the middle-east 7 years ago.

TimFreeh · #4 01-05-2009, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I do think the Israelis do themselves no good in the long run when they massively retaliate indiscriminately to the attacks.

Israel responds "indiscriminately" to the attacks? Really?

Israel targets specific sites using high tech weapons and seems to do everything possible to limit civilian casualties. Hamas on the other hand seems to do everything they can to maximize civilian casualties (among their own people) by locating ammo storage dumps in mosques and firing at Israel from locations right in the middle of large concentrations of civilians - because they know that collateral damage will be breathlessly reported by NPR, CBS, ABC, CNN, etc,ect,etc.

If you want to call Israel's response "indiscriminate" I'd be curious how you would describe the action of launching unguided missiles at towns and cities in Israel? IIRC Hamas has now fired over 3,000 rockets into Israel (and killed 30 civilians) BEFORE Israel chose to respond.

#5 01-05-2009, 10:05 AM

I personally belive that Hamas (and their backers in Iran and such) has all the responsibility in this one, I completely agree with Timfreeh that Hamas does everything in its power to make more civilian casualites. And Israel should have the right to exist in peace and well sometimes peace is acheived at the end of a sword.

mgburg · #6 01-05-2009, 10:29 AM

As Tim & Tom mentioned, Hamas is #1, #2 & #3 in bearing responsibility...then the Arab nations...no question...

Israel isn't conducting retalitory strikes LIKE Hamas does their bombings...and the key word here (as it always has been) is retalitory.

Two things I noticed on the news last night...

I'm not sure which network it was, but the reporter was asking a guard at one of the closed border crossings into Gaza who was responsible for keeping the crossings closed. The answer was Egypt! Egypt was doing the work of keeping the crossings closed! Albeit it was at the request of Israel...in order to cut off supplies of more rockets and bombing material coming in...not humanitarian aid...rockets and bombs.

And what was in the frame of the photographer...for a few seconds? Trucks lined up...with armed guards around one or two trucks in the backround...

Only guarding TWO trucks? What could possibly be in those trucks that would warrant extra protection..."FooFoo Water" from France? "Beef-flavored" tofu from Japan?

Yah..."humanitarian aid" my a##! RPAs..."Rocket-Propelled Aid" more likely...

Who's looking out for the Gazians?

So, Egypt is "cooperating" with the Israelis...I wonder how Egypt's government leaders are going to enjoy hearing that around the world...that should make some interesting conversation around the table at the next meeting of OPEC...

tankdriver · #7 01-05-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

Israel responds "indiscriminately" to the attacks? Really?

Israel targets specific sites using high tech weapons and seems to do everything possible to limit civilian casualties. Hamas on the other hand seems to do everything they can to maximize civilian casualties (among their own people) by locating ammo storage dumps in mosques and firing at Israel from locations right in the middle of large concentrations of civilians - because they know that collateral damage will be breathlessly reported by NPR, CBS, ABC, CNN, etc,ect,etc.

If you want to call Israel's response "indiscriminate" I'd be curious how you would describe the action of launching unguided missiles at towns and cities in Israel? IIRC Hamas has now fired over 3,000 rockets into Israel (and killed 30 civilians) BEFORE Israel chose to respond.

400 killed so far, 4 confirmed Hamas terrorists. That's precision like a surgeon operating with a forklift.

Where did you get the 3K/30 civilians number from? First time I've seen it.

Botnst · #8 01-05-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

400 killed so far, 4 confirmed Hamas terrorists. That's precision like a surgeon operating with a forklift.

Where did you get the 3K/30 civilians number from? First time I've seen it.

What is a "civilian"? What is a "confirmed terrorist"?

LaRondo · #9 01-05-2009, 02:36 PM

I think it's great, for the Germans anyway, since Israel just sealed another part of its history.
Forfeiting the claim, being the inherent victim of indefinite holocausts and expulsions ain't gonna fly so well anymore in the future.

For all the believers, who thought that Sharon is moving Israelis from the Gaza strip, with the intention to return it to Palestinians, ain't gonna fly either, since everybody knew, what happens today, was not a question if, but when.

Sad part seems to be, them Palestinians are being scapegoated, the sacrificial lambs of the game.

What makes the difference for Islamic nations, is to buy time, every day this game continues works in their favor.

Interestingly, one should note the precision timing of the operation.
Just in time during the last days of Bushovski and after they finally ousted Olmert, which leaves Israel currently without an elected government.
Tipsi and Bibi are in charge. Heck what beauty of a military coup!

However, I predict, the day will come when Israel will have to bare it's own responsibility and it won't be pretty.

LaRondo · #10 01-05-2009, 02:43 PM

Btw, it will have to show how successful the Israeli ground operation will be, in terms of "Urban Guerilla Warfare".
They gonna have to break a sweat, I suppose.

But, by then, 'Obama the Savior' will appear and wave the magic wand ... and everybody will go back to the usual regrouping business, until further notice.

cmac2012 · #11 01-06-2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

Israel responds "indiscriminately" to the attacks? Really?

Israel targets specific sites using high tech weapons and seems to do everything possible to limit civilian casualties. Hamas on the other hand seems to do everything they can to maximize civilian casualties (among their own people) by locating ammo storage dumps in mosques and firing at Israel from locations right in the middle of large concentrations of civilians - because they know that collateral damage will be breathlessly reported by NPR, CBS, ABC, CNN, etc,ect,etc.

If you want to call Israel's response "indiscriminate" I'd be curious how you would describe the action of launching unguided missiles at towns and cities in Israel? IIRC Hamas has now fired over 3,000 rockets into Israel (and killed 30 civilians) BEFORE Israel chose to respond.

The missile launching by Hamas is reprehensible. I mean, what do they expect? Who would roll over and let that go on indefinitely? Israel has shown a lot of restraint.

OTOH, Gaza is an open air prison. Part of the blame for that lies with the Pals but like I've said before -- the Zionists bought themselves 1,000 years of war.

mgburg · #12 01-06-2009, 05:25 AM

I looked at the propaganda that the little lady posted...then her comments about the "Zionist provided" pictures showing the "homemade rockets" that Hamas "supposedly fired" into Israel...

Oh goodie! A "reporter" supplies pictures and then disses the pictures from the other side...lop-sided at best...

Dead children? Not good anyway you look at it...

But, if the "chicken-fighters" want to hide among women and children...then the rules of engagement have to change to meet the challenge...

And, if the women and children are want to strap on a homi-bomber vest and wander among the living and innocent, then there's no humanity deserved for that side...they, along with the chickens guiding them, need to be erased...period...

They've already decided that they don't want to live ... help them out ... by the way ... how does a Homi-bomber-training mullah explain the "72 virgins" that will be available to pre-pubescent Homi-bombers? Isn't that sorta' like saying that Muhammad endorsed pedophilia in the afterlife?

And if the women are strapping on homi-bomber vests for Allah, then do they qualify for 72 male virgins? So, what happens to each of those "virgins" after they rip-one-off for the dead martyr? Do THEY go to hell because they're not virgins anymore? Or, are they "cleansed" and reused as "professional virgins" ... and where does this type of logic actually fall in the scheme of things in the land of the dead...the Gaza Strip...

Oh...I know...no where...'cause that's what everyone has to look forward to...

LaRondo · #13 01-06-2009, 05:37 AM

As the saga continues, it will be America (or should I say Americans?) who will be obliged to carry the burden of the 'ultimate responsibility'. Directly or indirectly.

AustinsCE · #14 01-06-2009, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgburg

But, if the "chicken-fighters" want to hide among women and children...then the rules of engagement have to change to meet the challenge...

Shall we use the same logic in the 9/11 attacks?

But wait there's more! Deliberate bombing of a school!

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090106/twl-three-killed-as-israel-bombs-un-scho-41f21e0.html

Quote:

At least three people have been killed in an Israeli bombing raid on a United Nations school in the Gaza Strip.

Hundreds of terrified Palestinians were taking shelter in the building after fleeing fierce fighting between Israeli soldiers and Hamas fighters.

The latest fatalities in the 11-day-old conflict come after Israel warned that fighting in Gaza could get worse before its mission against Hamas is complete.

Palestinian witnesses said Israeli forces have pushed into Khan Younis in southern Gaza as the army widened the ground assault it launched four days ago against Hamas militants.

At least 718 Palestinians, including 130 militants, have been killed since the offensive began. In the latest attacks, at least 35 people are reported to have died.

The dead included ten killed by naval shells along the beach in the central Gaza Strip and 11 people, including five children, whose bodies were pulled from the rubble of a house hit by an airstrike.

Nine Israelis, including three civilians hit in Palestinian rocket attacks, have died in the conflict.

Many of the Gaza Strip's 1.5 million people lack food, water or power and hospitals are struggling to cope with the casualties of the conflict.

Save the Children has called for aid to be let in to the stricken area and said that 50,000 children are already suffering from chronic malnutrition.

More than 2,000 families were displaced prior to the launch of the ground offensive on Saturday with charities expecting the number to increase significantly as fighting escalates.

Politicians led by Prime Minister Gordon Brown have united to urge both sides to reach an immediate ceasefire. Mr Brown said it was vital that the international community, including the Arab League, worked together to find a workable solution to the problem.

He said: "This is a very dangerous moment, I think everybody around the world is expressing grave concern. What we've got to do almost immediately is to work harder than we've done for an immediate ceasefire."

US President George W Bush has insisted that any ceasefire to end the Gaza crisis must include provisions to prevent Hamas from continuing to use the coastal strip to fire rockets into Israel.

Mr Bush made it clear while he is concerned about deteriorating conditions for Palestinians living in Gaza that he puts the onus on Hamas. He stopped short of calling for an immediate halt to the fighting as some European leaders have done.

But wait, that's not all! War crimes and depleted uranium! The gift that keeps on giving. This year's hottest trend: flipper-armed babies! Yeah!!!!

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80443&sectionid=351020202

Quote:

Depleted uranium found in Gaza victims
Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:16:21 GMT

Medics tell Press TV they have found traces of depleted uranium in some Gaza residents wounded in Israel's ground offensive on the strip.

Norwegian medics told Press TV correspondent Akram al-Sattari that some of the victims who have been wounded since Israel began its attacks on the Gaza Strip on December 27 have traces of depleted uranium in their bodies.

The report comes after Israeli tanks and troops swept across the border into Gaza on Saturday night, opening a ground operation after eight days of intensive attacks by Israeli air and naval forces on the impoverished region.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned on Sunday that the wide-ranging ground offensive in the Gaza Strip would be "full of surprises."

A ground offensive in the densely-populated Gaza is expected to drastically increase the death toll of the civilian population.

The latest assaults bring the number of Palestinians killed to over 488 with 2790 others wounded. The UN says that about 25 percent of the casualties were civilian deaths - including at least 34 children.

According to Israeli army officials, at least 30 of its soldiers have been wounded since the start of the ground campaign.

Amid global condemnation of the ongoing violence in the region, the UN Security Council failed to agree on a united approach to resolve the crisis.

"Once again, the world is watching in dismay the dysfunctionality of the Security Council," UN General Assembly chief Miguel d'Escoto said Sunday.

According to diplomatic sources, the US blocked a Security Council resolution, with US Deputy Ambassador Alejandro Wolff arguing that an official statement that criticizes both Israel and Hamas would not be helpful.

The White House has so far declined to comment on whether an Israeli ground incursion into Gaza is a justified measure.

That'll show them bastards for having what the west believes is a barbaric religion, involving no other prospect in life but the acquisition of 72 virgins after a suicide bombing of a mall or wedding or bakery!

LaRondo · #15 01-06-2009, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgburg

I looked at the propaganda that the little lady posted...then her comments about the "Zionist provided" pictures showing the "homemade rockets" that Hamas "supposedly fired" into Israel...

Oh goodie! A "reporter" supplies pictures and then disses the pictures from the other side...lop-sided at best...

Dead children? Not good anyway you look at it...

But, if the "chicken-fighters" want to hide among women and children...then the rules of engagement have to change to meet the challenge...

And, if the women and children are want to strap on a homi-bomber vest and wander among the living and innocent, then there's no humanity deserved for that side...they, along with the chickens guiding them, need to be erased...period...

They've already decided that they don't want to live ... help them out ... by the way ... how does a Homi-bomber-training mullah explain the "72 virgins" that will be available to pre-pubescent Homi-bombers? Isn't that sorta' like saying that Muhammad endorsed pedophilia in the afterlife?

And if the women are strapping on homi-bomber vests for Allah, then do they qualify for 72 male virgins? So, what happens to each of those "virgins" after they rip-one-off for the dead martyr? Do THEY go to hell because they're not virgins anymore? Or, are they "cleansed" and reused as "professional virgins" ... and where does this type of logic actually fall in the scheme of things in the land of the dead...the Gaza Strip...

Oh...I know...no where...'cause that's what everyone has to look forward to...

You don't happen to carry any hatred with you?