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  #46  
Old 01-16-2009, 05:53 PM
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Truman.

Clinton used the same sign but with a different meaning.

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  #47  
Old 01-16-2009, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Clinton used the same sign but with a different meaning.
What did Clinton's sign mean?
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  #48  
Old 01-16-2009, 06:02 PM
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I was reading the bond page today and the experts are baffled as to why we are still experiencing deflation despite the massive government influx of money.

Keynsians 1 - Supply Side 0 1st quarter

I am a Keynsian BTW, I don't think perfect capitalism can exist.
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  #49  
Old 01-16-2009, 06:19 PM
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The more dishonest and immoral, the more reasonable socialism appears. You force people to do the right thing rather than depend on them to do the right thing.
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  #50  
Old 01-16-2009, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
The more dishonest and immoral, the more reasonable socialism appears. You force people to do the right thing rather than depend on them to do the right thing.
Do you really think the intervention is socialism though? I don't, I think its only wise for a government to use its funds as a weapon against a financial collapse. If the funds were not injected into the system at the time the pavement on Wall Street would be worth more than the stocks traded inside.

Edit:
^^ to recap on my summation perfect capitalism can't exist the way international markets are tied together unlike years ago.

Last edited by Medmech; 01-16-2009 at 06:32 PM.
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  #51  
Old 01-16-2009, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I was reading the bond page today and the experts are baffled as to why we are still experiencing deflation despite the massive government influx of money.

Keynsians 1 - Supply Side 0 1st quarter

I am a Keynsian BTW, I don't think perfect capitalism can exist.
I guess they haven't realized that as big as the Gov't infux of funds has been, especially in relation to historic comparisons, it is puny compared to the contraction in overall credit. The efforts to make up the difference could be likened to trying to refill Lake Mead with a single fire hose if the Hoover Dam ever broke.

As for the Keynesians, I don't think perfect capitalism has ever been tried.
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  #52  
Old 01-16-2009, 07:29 PM
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I think its only wise for a government to use its funds as a weapon against a financial collapse.
Herein lies the problem. The Government does not have its own funds to use in this fight against financial collapse. If the Government were in the position of having been sitting on a huge reserve of cash prior to the financial collapse, you could more easily make the case that using those funds was prudent. However, the Government had no such reserve. It is using funds it will have to appropriate from those who were prudent enough in their afffairs to have been able to retain capital (through borrowing or taxes) or from future generations, or it will have to borrow them from abroad, or it will have to create more fiat from thin air. None of these options are remotely prudent, and 2 of them are potentially disasterous in fairly short order.
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  #53  
Old 01-16-2009, 08:01 PM
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Politicans and Diapers

Both need to be changed regularly

FOR THE SAME REASON
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  #54  
Old 01-16-2009, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
How is it just the Bush Admin that is screwing up? IIRC, we have the Executive Branch (Bush & Co), Legislative Branch (Congress) and the Judiciary that run the country so no one group can be too powerful. So, doesn't Congress have some share in this mess? After all, short of Executive Orders, doesn't Congress have a huge say in matters? If so, doesn't that make them as responsible as Bush & Co?
The Secretary of the Treasury has the responsibility of doling out money congress has appropriated for the "bailout". Sec'ty Paulson is a member of the executive branch and was nominated to the post by GW Bush.
Sec'ty Paulson will not reveal to congress how or to whom he paid out our money.
Bush and Co is responsible-again- for screwing this up.
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  #55  
Old 01-16-2009, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
I was reading the bond page today and the experts are baffled as to why we are still experiencing deflation despite the massive government influx of money.

Keynsians 1 - Supply Side 0 1st quarter

I am a Keynsian BTW, I don't think perfect capitalism can exist.
My take is the money is being horded, either because banks or scared, or on a consumer level because they are.

I think we will see inflation.
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  #56  
Old 01-16-2009, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
Actually, I agree with RichC. The taxpayers should not be paying corporate welfare. In capitalism, you MUST allow businesses to fail. The managers, and Boards of Directors who run corporations into the ground must be held accountable for their choices, and not be allowed to walk away with personal fortunes.
The entire bailout business is a total scam and waste of money. If they HAD to do something, they should have given the money to people who owed the mortgages to pay them off. That would have put the money back into circulation rather than allowed the banks to hoarde it. It would have freed up additional money for spending because those with the paid-off mortgages would have more money for spending on other stuff.
You must also allow them to succeed, and grow.
Another aspect of that is the bizarre circumstance of foreclosed houses sitting vacant so long and so obviously that gangs and other squatters have moved in and be-soiled them, etc. So the banks were not getting sufficient flow of money from the residents to satisfy everyone on the gravy train so they boot them out, leaving the houses to not only bring in no money but to be open game for being trashed by punks.

Oh boy. Is this a great country or what?
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  #57  
Old 01-16-2009, 08:51 PM
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Here's your answer:

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  #58  
Old 01-16-2009, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ImBroke View Post
Howitzer, thanks for that. As another retired military member, you hit the nail on the head. Obviously RichC has never served.


Oh I bet he has.........."would you like fries with that burger sir?"
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  #59  
Old 01-16-2009, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Hatterasguy View Post
My take is the money is being horded, either because banks or scared, or on a consumer level because they are.

I think we will see inflation.

Your take is correct, an economy has X dollars they don't disappear, they get reallocated, on a micro scale I personally think our RE collapse is because of increased spending on energy too many dollars are being sent to other economies that are stockpiling the money, they won't invest in the US because of uncertainty. One thing about a "recession" is that its almost 100% psychological I know salaried people, teachers, police officers ect. that are tightening the pocket book for no apparent reason..the only real common denominator I personally see is food and fuel which hits everyone regardless of their employment situation.
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  #60  
Old 01-16-2009, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 420SEL View Post
Herein lies the problem. The Government does not have its own funds to use in this fight against financial collapse. If the Government were in the position of having been sitting on a huge reserve of cash prior to the financial collapse, you could more easily make the case that using those funds was prudent. However, the Government had no such reserve. It is using funds it will have to appropriate from those who were prudent enough in their afffairs to have been able to retain capital (through borrowing or taxes) or from future generations, or it will have to borrow them from abroad, or it will have to create more fiat from thin air. None of these options are remotely prudent, and 2 of them are potentially disasterous in fairly short order.
What do you think the solution is, a financial war-chest? I do. Back in the day Fort Knox was our strength now its a Visa with a 4 trillion dollar limit, I guess the upside is when we do pay the treasury investors back it will be at a low interest rate.

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