As opposed to the current situation where corporations have been able to amass power and limit the unionization of workers. Capitalism has a long history of protecting the private property of corporations and their owners thru the legal system and a less noble history in protecting the private property of workers in their labor. This is no real surprise because the ideologues of modern capitalist democracy are quite forthright in their arguments that the purpose of government is to protect private property and they did not have labor in mind when they made their arguments.
I think it is an advance in the general productive activities of humans for government to protect the private property of business owners as opposed to the property of the aristocratic classes, but there is not a similar advance in the rights and freedoms of the laboring classes.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Who owns corporations?

I own pieces of hundreds of them. I like it when they make money and I want them to make even more.

I like the theory of private property. Too bad we don't have any. For example, if I don't pay property taxes it turns out I don't have a right to the property, I have mere occupancy.

saying we don't need unions anymore is like saying we don't need a minimum wage.

Danny

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1984 300SD Turbo Diesel 150,000 miles

OBK member #23

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(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination

So do I as long as private property in labor is equal to private property in capital. It hasn't happened yet.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I would agree--on both counts.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Without organized labor, the minimum wage would be $$ necessary to purchase food of the minimum number of calories adequate to do one's job, go home, poke one's spouse to reproduce the next generation of workers and get up in the morning to serve the capitalist another day.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I completely agree: we don't need minimum wage.

I have no idea what that means. Can your write the equation without using a dollar sign?

You do not honestly believe that corporate management sits in a back room and thinks of ways to screw their employees? I am in management and we certainly believe our employees to be the most valuable asset we have. We want them to prosper and advance along with the company which means being paid a fair wage and good benefits package. It is not like the movie about Hoffa anymore.

As Bot states most of us own pieces of corporations so we all want them to make as much as possible. I also agree with Bot we do not need a minimum wage

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Keith Schuster
2006 E350 98K miles
2013 Ford Explorer 15K miles

having worked for a company ( i left, on my own terms) which has removed all its higher paid workers (and suffered as a result) i do honestly believe that corporate mgmt does try to screw their employees, because i have seen it happen. (oh, by the way, i lead a class action lawsuit , which settled for $2million - not that they admitted any guilt, oh no! - for unpaid back wages for several hundred workers.)

don't be naive.

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

O.K., so far this is pretty well split between the pro and con union voices. I started the thread and came from a union family. My Dad was a shop steward and as a kid I stood on the picket line with him. He never really got ahead with the UMW, nor did my brother who followed in his footsteps. Me, I worked 40 hours per week at a hotel to put myself through college. 21 years as an air force officer, and now a senior administrator in health care. So what do I think of unions? They are basically useless. Nearly everything they once fought for (rightfully so) is now protected by federal law. Consider the only big stick the unions have, the right to strike. Do you know that under concerted effort (I think that's the right term), even non-union employees can walk off the job with protection? Who can give higher wages, benefits, etc.? Not the union...these can only come from the employer. If you say unions do not practice intimidation, you are either lying or to naive to know any better. They want one thing, and that's dues. They could care less about the employee. They focus on getting the absolute worst employees to stir things up, and make it almost impossible to fire them even with excellant cause. You say they're not the problem? They negotiated once good companies (Delphi for example) into situations they could not feasibly continue forever. Now their employees are looking at promised health benefits going away, as well as other cuts. Since they thought their union would protect these forever, they didn't make any other plans. Without the unions, maybe Delphi, GM, Chrysler and others would not be in the shape they're in. Oh well, back to the other part of my original post, the ONLY reason the unions (and therefore "O") want to eliminate private ballots is so they can go door to door and haress uninformed employees into signing. Once they're in, nearly every state allows a union clause that says any employee working there must join or be termed. My wife was forced to join a union at ther school three years ago. She must pay over $60/month and there has not been a pay increase since the union came in. As stated earlier, they have protected the worst employees. She's doing what she can to get support to ask the NLRB for another vote. Unfortunately, in the rust belt where the UMW was king for so long, people still the union as a benefit even when they get nothing from them. What a freakin Socialist path we are headed down!

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2manycars
02 ML320 (SOLD)
98 SL500
03 E320
89 260E
75 450SL
98 Chev Silverado K1500 (SOLD)
02 Chev Avalanche 2500
05 Harley Davidson Ultra Classic
02 27' Toy Hauler

We've gone over this before. Capital controls a corporation, not labor. Why? If labor as private property is equal to private property as capital, workers would have equal say in the running of a corporation as management.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

How can you say that corporations don't want to keep labor costs as low as possible when you also say that you want corporations to make as much as possible? How do they do that? They keep their costs as low as possible, including their labor costs. The goal of traditional capitalist corporations is not to make their workers lives better. The goal is profit.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Mr. Professor, please see post #26 for a real world example of the negation of your hypothesis.

what about post 25 ?

my ex company had all of us in mgmt doing non mgmt work, and because we were salaried, wanted free overtime from all of us. i went to the head of the company - mr. "open door" president - and explained the law to him. he laughed me off, because he wanted 200 mgmt people to each work 10 hours a week for free. once i filed suit, the company suddenly (?) changed its policies - but still settled for back pay. the desired business model for all companies all goes back to wal-mart ( a company that has paid millions in back pay to settle lawsuits for unpaid labor)

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."