I am union neutral. They are sometimes good sometimes bad. Sometimes necessary and sometimes not.

When there is a situation where the worker has very limited options for work such as in a small town in w va where the only employment source in town is the coal mine, a union is needed.

When a person who teaches school (such as my wife) would be unable to secure a different job in most any place she would want to work because she has too much experience, then a union is needed.

We have a nice big Caterpillar plant here that is non union. They pay equal to a union plant and offer excellent bennies, just like a union plant. Many of the workers turn their noses up at union members at the Cat plant in Peoria, saying "We don't need no stinking union, we get the same pay they do".

Of course if the plant in Peoria was not union the workers here would be making maybe 12.50 an hour instead of 36.50.

But there are plenty of places they don't need a union.

And a secret ballot is fine with me. Personally, I doubt that O supports a non secret ballot.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Why do the kinds of things described in post 26 and the opposite in post 25 occur? Because as it stands, owners (management) and labor have conflicting interests and each seeks to protect them. Were both to be equals in running the corporations, as in the Mondragon model, there are not conflicting interests in two different social classes at work and there are much much fewer problems like those described in those posts.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Pinkertons (and union thugs) were actually violent, that's what I meant. There is plenty of intimidation from management still because they control the purse strings. Unions do not.

We seem to be talking about different things. The unions in your example are not intimidating workers. They are flexing political muscle, and taking advantage of the apparent inability of legislators to stop their penises from falling into holes.
I was talking about forcing or intimidating people into voting them into a company's work force. There may be a few places that still need the A-Team, but for the most part, I don't think people these days can be scared into signing the form.



Business loves to say their number one asset is their employees. Strangely, their number one asset is the first thing to go when business needs to make cuts.
As a stockholder, I want the company I own stock in to make money. I also want it to provide a good working environment. I do not want it to make as much money as is possible. Maybe that makes me an evil non-capitalist dog. I also want the company I own stock in to provide a good product.

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1984 300TD

What I have witnessed with SEIU is not so much scaring anyone, but rather pestering them to the point they will sign the card just to get them to leave them alone. With the current system, not such a big deal. But with EFCA, signing the card IS your vote if the legislation stays pretty much as its been drafted. People would not dream of signing an indefinite contract for a car without first knowing what they were getting for their money, yet if they sign the card (contract) under EFCA, they will be paying dues for a long time and more than likely they won't get a thing out of it. This is the unions last ditch effort...to so heavily finance a candidate that he will have to pay you back by taking a system that's already fair and replacing it with one that has employees signing up for something they may not understand at all.

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2manycars
02 ML320 (SOLD)
98 SL500
03 E320
89 260E
75 450SL
98 Chev Silverado K1500 (SOLD)
02 Chev Avalanche 2500
05 Harley Davidson Ultra Classic
02 27' Toy Hauler

uh, wasn't the uh "card system" an option for many years, until the right changed it in the 80's ? 90's? Bush (43) years?

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Workers can have equal participation if the buy into ownership of the corporation like any other investor. Nothing that I know of prevents them from buying stock in a publicly traded company. If they are working for a privately held company then they can choose to sell their labor elsewhere.

It isn't not people who are commodified, it is their labor which is commodified. Failing to differentiate labor from human being dehumanizes the person.

Can anybody name a free society in which the ballot is not secret? Can anybody name a totalitarian society in which the ballot is not controlled by the state by either Not being secret of the government controls the candidacies?

If they want equal say, the answer is simple. Buy the company over or start your own. Yes, that means you have to stick your neck out and it might get chopped off but them are the breaks. I dumped money into my business but I might lose it all or gain more. If I am unable or unwilling, I have to work for someone that is willing. I have been on both sides of the table as employer and employee. Are there many benefits to being an employer? Absolutely. Are there also many benefits to being an employee? Absolutely. Which do YOU prefer? That will marshal you the way in your life. As an employer, I can't clock out at 1700 and go home worry free. I have problems as an employer. I have perks too. Pick your poison.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I believe it was Stalin who was a proponent of the secret ballot. He did not care WHO voted; he only wanted control over who COUNTED the votes.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Lack of capital is what prevents labors from owning corporations. Saying that nothing prevents labor from buying stock is like saying nothing prevents Rockefeller from being poor. Differentiating labor from a person is what dehumanizes a person. If I am not found in my labor, a very important part of me is lost.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

again, wasn't the "card system" in effect for a long time before being removed as an option?

(i guess i'll have to look it up myself)

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

I am not wealthy and I own sufficient stock in various corporations that I want to see them make profit as their primary function.

If folks haven't the patience to work and to save and buy into the business that employes them then they can choose to seek opportunities elsewhere. So long as they re free to choose.

You are who you are, regardless of what you do or where you are form, or whom your parents maybe. This is also known as "all men are created equal." You glorify yourself through your labor.

If your labor has sufficient value to me I may buy it. If your labor is not of sufficient value to me I may not buy it. In either case, you have the same value to yourself and in the eyes of law and morality, of equal value to me.

The only way to be "dehumanized," whatever that means, is if you do it yourself to yourself.

Huh?

Slavery has been around since time immemorial. Is that an argument in favor of slavery?

Since collective bargaining began in this country elections have been held almost exclusively through a secret ballot process. Unions and libs supported by them would like a card system because it will allow them to push more people into unions against their will, getting their membership up from the measley 7.5% of the labor force they control today. Workers need to be free to decide on a union without management or union coercion, and a private election controlled by the National Labor Relations Board is the only way to ensure this. Draw a corollary: You show up at the polls on election day and you have to write your vote on the blackboard for everyone to see. Me, I'd still make my conservative vote known unto death, but do you really think that millions of people would not be intimitated to vote other than their conscious? I despise unions, but if my employees decide they want one it's their choice under the law...just don't let a management or union thug force them to make a choice they don't want. Really people, this is a truly stupid attempt to pay back the unions that backed "O", and if you don't know what this is about you should educate yourself rather than saying "wasn't it always this way?". If passed, depending on how it's passed, this could have major implications for our economy.

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2manycars
02 ML320 (SOLD)
98 SL500
03 E320
89 260E
75 450SL
98 Chev Silverado K1500 (SOLD)
02 Chev Avalanche 2500
05 Harley Davidson Ultra Classic
02 27' Toy Hauler

There is the fiction that all men are created equal. If only it were true. Even Locke himself recognized the problem once access to land into which one could invest one's labor became impossible because all land was privatized. His theory of government protected the rights of property owners against the rights of owners of labor, despite the fact that he thought that labor was the most basic form of property because he knew that new laborers born into a social situation where access to property into which they could invest their labor was limited would produce social conflict.
Why divide the controlling rights, giving control to capital instead of equalizing them? If you own stock in the company at which you work, you are still not free from the control of management. You could be downsized at your own company because your rights as a worker at the company are less than your rights as a capitalist and stockholder.
It's an odd and unjust situation.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13