Not in this case. Why is it that all the other countries that have govt-funded health care spend LESS per person than we do? No it's not the quality. They live longer than we do and even their cancer survival rates are usually better.

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You don't think that lifestyle makes a huge difference in the quality of patient? If you have better quality patients, cost goes down and life expectancy goes up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/21/AR2008042102406_pf.html

About half of all deaths in the United States are attributable to a small number of "modifiable" behaviors and exposures, such as smoking, poor diet and lack of exercise.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2003832640_life12.html

For decades, the United States has been slipping in international rankings of life expectancy, as other countries improve health care, nutrition and lifestyles

Researchers said several factors contributed to the United States' falling behind other industrialized nations. A major one is that 45 million Americans lack health insurance, while Canada and many European countries have universal health care, they say.

But "it's not as simple as saying we don't have national health insurance," said Sam Harper, an epidemiologist at McGill University in Montreal. "It's not that easy."

Among the other factors:

• Adults in the United States have one of the highest obesity rates in the world. Nearly one-third of U.S. adults 20 years and older are obese, while about two-thirds are overweight, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.

• Racial disparities. Black Americans have an average life expectancy of 73.3 years, five years shorter than white Americans.

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• A relatively high percentage of babies born in the United States die before their first birthday, compared with other industrialized nations. Forty countries, including Cuba, Taiwan and most of Europe, had lower infant-mortality rates than the United States in 2004. The U.S. rate was 6.8 deaths for every 1,000 live births. It was 13.7 for black Americans, the same as Saudi Arabia.

Another reason for the U.S. drop in the ranking is that the Census Bureau tracks life expectancy for a lot more countries — 222 in 2004 — than it did in the 1980s. However, that does not explain why so many countries entered the rankings with longer life expectancies than the United States.

Murray, of the University of Washington, said improved access to health insurance could increase life expectancy. But, policymakers also should focus on ways to reduce cancer, heart disease and lung disease, Murray said. He advocates stepped-up efforts to reduce tobacco use, control blood pressure, reduce cholesterol and regulate blood sugar.

"Even if we focused only on those four things, we would go a long way toward improving health care in the United States," Murray said.

Sure. More healthcare can improve things SOME. We still need to change the way we eat, and live. Until then, you are playing against a marked deck and you are going to lose most times.

Take me for instance. I have full access to an NP. Does that make me immune to problems? Can I smoke like a chimney and eat Ding Dongs all day but because of my association I am better off than someone who eats right and does their exercises? My wife can send me for treatment earlier than if I didn't have her to watch me. By doing so, we can lower the cost some and thus make me less likely to die sooner. But all her knowledge and abilities don't help me if I am 5'4 and weigh 500#, smoke, drink to excess and lie on the couch. You can bring down some cost by catching the problem before it becomes too serious but you are deluding yourself if you think that will make you healthy. Those conditions are going to rack up health care costs and lower my mortality and slow down recovery from cancer as long as I will not change myself. Nothing my wife can do about it if I don't want to change.

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You want to throw the insurance industry on the unemployment rolls? We may never survive if we ad their numbers to those already unemployed.

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I place absolutely no stock or value in anything any politician says, especially a big-government liberal like McCain. I am unsurprised that you find anything about him appealing.

But that still doesn't tell me how the lifestyles in other countries compare to those in the US. I know that Britain and Australia have very similar obesity numbers to those in the US. It's a good article but it doesn't change what I said, that in the US we spend much more per person on health care even though our system is mostly handled by the private sector. So the argument that government is less cost-efficient in handling health care doesn't really hold up. You should see Taiwan's system for example. They use something that looks like ATM cards and a central database that keeps all their medical records. This enormously reduces administrative costs and errors and it makes it much easier to move from one doctor or clinic to another, and it's all handled by the government there.

__________________
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Well, they could try to stay in business and be more competitive, or go work for the expanded Medicare system.

__________________
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Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

• Adults in the United States have one of the highest obesity rates in the world. Nearly one-third of U.S. adults 20 years and older are obese, while about two-thirds are overweight, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.

I would think that you would agree with me that having one of the highest obesity rates is probably not good for health. We both know that obesity is not just obesity. Obesity can lead to all kinds of issues. All the way from back pain to knee problems to foot problems and we haven't talked about how the other organs are going to take it. How do you think the heart, kidneys and liver likes it?

That is why I say that comparing costs like that is only meaningful if you have the same patients. Otherwise, like I said, you are playing against me with a stacked deck. You won't win. You take more unhealthy patients and you are going to spend more, have less lifespan, etc, etc.

http://www.annecollins.com/obesity/worldwide-obesity.htm

Look at the chart there and tell me what you think

In the United States, obesity is the most common chronic disease, affecting more than 1 in 4 of all Americans, including children, and its incidence has been steadily increasing for the past 20 years. In Europe, Australia/New Zealand, the Middle East, and the remaining portions of the Americas, the occurrence of obesity appears to be increasing and is now between 10 and 20 percent. The prevalence of obesity is still fairly low in China, Japan, and many countries in Africa.

1 in 4 and rising means 25% and up, right? How do we stack up with the rest of the world there?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

You're right, we are the most obese nation on the planet. But some others are not far behind, yet they spend much less on health care and live just as long if not longer. But again, lifestyles are hard to compare and there are other unhealthy habits besides eating too much.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity

__________________
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I forget....
How is ANY of this related to stimulating the economy???

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Not far behind is a little bit of an understatement. We are at 30.6% and Germany is at 12.9% UK is at 23%, etc, etc. I'd say that is a lot more than "not far behind".

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I propose harvesting the fat from fat Americans and turning it into biodiesel to reduce our oil imports and stimulate the economy.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Why must it be related? I already told you that it is a hostage situation. Take out National Healthcare and you take out the stimulus bill as well. All or nothing.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

There is enormous competition.

Find me a Health insurance policy for less than $2k per month.

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Throwing down the gauntlet, are ye? That's a stupid challenge, since I don't know anything about you. That being the case, don't feel obliged to share.

But I regularly steer people I obtain money for towards opening HSAs and maxing their contributions and getting high deductible policies all the time. $3-500/month for a family of four with a $5K deductible isn't uncommon.

Competition ought to be obvious--there are a lot of companies that offer not only their own products, but search bene packages and broker other products too.