Apprentice seeks guidance on purchasing used machinist's tools- - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

jt20 · #1 03-04-2009, 11:28 AM

Please mention any favorite brands and their used price range.

Details concerning longevity and expected calibration schedules are a big plus.

I am mostly interested in the simple stuff right now.

lutzTD · #2 03-04-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jt20

Please mention any favorite brands and their used price range.

Details concerning longevity and expected calibration schedules are a big plus.

I am mostly interested in the simple stuff right now.

decide what you need up front and what is in the tool crib, then go through the magazines and find the retail price. used should be in the 25-33% range. buy your own 0-1 mics, as these are a personal choice and used most often. calpers are ok used, but I like to have a nice one (dial) and a cheap one (digital for mm & inch). I like Starrett for everything good, and for cheaper I use Fowler, although they are pretty good these days. Mitutyo are good too. I like to have a seperate case for the 0-1 mics and calipers for use at the machine. Dont buy the fancy Gurstner wood box, get a metal Kennedy. Boxes can be had on Craigs pretty cheap, but if you buy mics make sure you get the standards, make sure the are carbide and not chipped and check them with the standrds to make sure the frames are not sprung

waybomb · #3 03-04-2009, 01:25 PM

Starrett, in the fitted metal or wood cases, not the blow-molded plastic caes. If buying used, buy them used and calibrated. Or, go to Starrett's website, and poke around. Somewhere in there, they have a list of prices for recalibrating the instruments. Print that out. Also looks up prices for all the items you want to buy. Print that out.

Then you need to add the cost of the used instrument to the cost of recal, and compare to a new instrument. I wouldn't spend more than 50%-60% of a new one on a used one with the added cost of recal.

Buy instruments that go to "a tenth" - ten thousanths. Or you will later.

Forget every body else's trash, unless you can find some old Brown and Sharpe calibrated.

My son just went through this during the last two years - he ended up keeping some of the used stuff he bought in the beginning for rough work, but has now purchased all new Starrett stuff for the precision parts he is making. He guarantees a half tenth on his parts, unless the customer wants something tighter, which, of course, costs more.

75Sv1 · #4 03-04-2009, 01:45 PM

As far as brand, Starret and Mittoya, Brown & Sharpe are very good. Fowler is good and SPI. As mentioned before, carbide tips on the faces are good for micrometers. I would get a 1 inch mic and a 2 inch mic. Depnds on the shop you work in. The 1 inch should read tenths. You should plan on buying up to 6 inch mic set at some point. For a calipher, I'd probably get an electronic one. I really like my Starret.
Chinese stuff can be spotty on quality. Of the East European (Poland) stuff, it cost a bit more than Chinese stuff, but way less then Starret and Mitutoyo. It has about the same quality as those. I have some General or Scherr Tumico mics. They are OK, but less quality than Starret, Mitutoyo and the East Europe or Fowler.
Etalon, Tesa, Interapid are some excellent Swiss made stuff. I'd buy a test indicator with some type of base. You might wait a while though on it. You will need a dial indicator, with at least 1 inch of travel, preferably 2 inches or more. There are some cheap ones that will do for a while, Teclock is OK. Also a magnetic stand for it.
Parralels, Snap gages, for measuring Internal diameters, combination sqaure with the three heads and 12 inch rule. Mighty Mag base. 'V' block, 1-2-3 blocks, radius gage set, angle gage set. See what you shop has and don't buy initially, if they have them.
Edge finder or wobbler, Thread pitch gages, Gerneral is OK for rulers and some other stuff. Its cheaper than Starret and a rule isn't that percise.
Federal and Lukin, used to make some top notch stuff too.
Tom

Mike D · #5 03-04-2009, 03:47 PM

Here's the best advice I can give you. Don't buy any used tools as an apprentice! Buy the minimum amount of tools you will need of the best quality NEW! As you gain experience you will discover what to look for in tools. Then you can start building up your inventory. There will always be a master machinist around to give you advice.

The good tools will last you a lifetime with proper care.

Pooka · #6 03-04-2009, 05:15 PM

Once you know what to look for most pawn shops are a good place to shop. The key here is knowing. Shop pawn shops in an area of town near machine shops or defence plants.

I have two tool chests, a Gerstner for the real precision tools (it is 58 years old) and a Kennedy for everything else. The Gerstner cannot be slammed around like a Kennedy can so your precision tools get handled more gently even when you are in a hurry.

But right now, just starting out, I would just go to Lowe's or Sears and pick up a good tool chest and put some rubber padding in the bottom of the drawers. You will have the time, and the money, for the better tool chests later.

And make sure you buy one with a lock of some type. It will only keep the honest people honest, but at least you know people are not getting into your tools.

jplinville · #7 03-04-2009, 05:55 PM

Set of 0 to 3" mics...Mitutoyo, Starret, or Brown and Sharpe...in that order

4" base Starret Depth mics 0 to 6" set...Starret only!!

8" Digital calipers...go for broke and get the solar powered ones Mitutoyo is the best out there.

Interapid indicators .0005" res. get one horizontal and one vertical reading. Make sure you get the coax holder from Interapid as well...the cheap chinese counterpart is junk.

12" dual beam digit-count style height gage...import is about $80 where a Mitutoya is about $350 and up. i prefer import due to having helpers knock mine off the surface plate numerous times in the past. Mitutoya brand accessories for these generally are perfect, such as the indicator holder/clamp combo.

1" travel indicator with Mighty Mag base can generally run you about $35 new...I wouldn't buy brand name on this indicator due to how much abuse they get

Calibration schedules depend on what the employer decides...generally once every 12 months for ISO-9000 and QS-9000 specifications, more often for AS-9000 specs.

With the current economy, you should be able to get all of the above at a pawn shop for around $500.00 cash.

Chinese tools such as 1-2-3 blocks, angle plates, grinding vises and such are much better quality than they used to be. I would personally buy these new from Precision Industrial Tool and Supply in Dayton Ohio. http://pitstool.zoovy.com/ If you call, ask for Kevin...I've known him for years.

Interapid indicators are inexpensively repaired by a company that advertises on ebay...they do good work such as cleaning and the like for about $35.00

Toolbox...Kennedy is the industry standard. Stay away from Gerstener until you start making top dollar...they are costly, but the best there is. Kennedy 8 drawer tool makers chest is about the best basic box out there. I'd also get a 5 or 7 drawer rolling chest and a 2 drawer riser. New prices are about $600 to $800 for the combo, but if you live a half day's drive from the factory located in VanWert Ohio, I'd go there and buy scratch and dent for about 25% of list price. Use prices shouldn't be much more than 50% of what list is.

BTW...are you just starting in the trade? If so, where? If you have any other questions, feel free to PM them my way.

jplinville · #8 03-04-2009, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D

Here's the best advice I can give you. Don't buy any used tools as an apprentice! Buy the minimum amount of tools you will need of the best quality NEW! As you gain experience you will discover what to look for in tools. Then you can start building up your inventory. There will always be a master machinist around to give you advice.

The good tools will last you a lifetime with proper care.

Honestly...I have to disagree with you here. Used tools are the best option just starting out. As the pay increases, so will the ability to purchase new tools.

You don't want to bankrupt the young lad...

jplinville · #9 03-04-2009, 06:02 PM

I forgot the most important thing...if you live in a climate with high humidity, buy some blocks of camphor and slice an X in them and toss them in the tool box...it will help with keeping moisture off the tools

Mike D · #10 03-04-2009, 06:05 PM

Used tools are a good option IF he knows what he's getting. You get no warranty on used tools. I have wrenches I bought 30 years ago and I use them daily. I spent the money and now it's saving me money.

There is nothing worse than a botched job because you "saved" a few bucks on that "purty good" deal on a used tool.

When he has the experience he will know what makes a good deal. You guys are steering him right with the recomendations of quality brand names. There's usually a reason why those used tools are being sold and it ain't always a good one.

lutzTD · #11 03-04-2009, 06:06 PM

or make sure to use a light machine oil to keep them clean. in time you will know if you are mister rusty fingers and can plan accordingly, some guys and women during menstration, will leave rusty finger prints on everything they touch

jplinville · #12 03-04-2009, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike D

There's usually a reason why those used tools are being sold and it ain't always a good one.

I think it's because the mfg sector has tanked and people are selling tools to be able to pay bills.

On a lighter note...I usually buy tools from people that are retiring. I love the old tools and have amassed quite a collection of tools from companies no longer around, such as Reid Small Tool Works and others.

I love taking these old tools and showing the newbies how things used to be done

lutzTD · #13 03-04-2009, 06:55 PM

yep. most tools I see up for sale are retirees or retirees family. I dont mind buying used, just take some guage blocks with you. mics are really the only thing that need calibrated and I useally check the anvil to see if the glue is missing, I pass if it is, most others just check square and condition and that should be enough, and look at the state of all of the tools, a good machinest babies his tools.

Monomer · #14 03-04-2009, 07:35 PM

If he's just getting into the trade, I recommend having a second choice as a career.

I've been in a machinist (tool maker) "apprentice" for the past 4 years.

All work is either going to china, or is CNC made. Half my work is JUST fixing NC department misshaps or sanding/deburring/benching in parts.

I'm lucky the company has put me in the plastics/composites department, plenty of aerospace work.

jplinville · #15 03-04-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutzTD

yep. most tools I see up for sale are retirees or retirees family. I dont mind buying used, just take some guage blocks with you. mics are really the only thing that need calibrated and I useally check the anvil to see if the glue is missing, I pass if it is, most others just check square and condition and that should be enough, and look at the state of all of the tools, a good machinest babies his tools.

In addition to taking gage blocks, I take a set of prisms to check the anvils too. You can see much better if the frame is bent and if the anvils are no longer parallel.