Wind and solar, dream on - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Emmerich · #1 03-16-2009, 12:01 AM

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB123621221496034823-lMyQjAxMDI5MzA2NTIwMTUyWj.html

RichC · #2 03-16-2009, 12:42 AM

In a clear sky, there's about 1kW per sq.m. of solar energy.

The radius of the Earth is 6.4E6 m.

So it presents to the Sun an area of 1.29E14 sq.m.

So the Earth intercepts about 1.3E17 watts of solar power,

Which is about 1.1E22 joules a day.

To put that into perspective,
enough sunlight hits the earth in a little under an hour
to power the eintire planet for a year.

The dream is here.

-------------------------

Or look at it this way.

If we could cover roughly the equivilant space of indiana with older tech photo voltaic cells, we could power the entire united states.

And the next generation of photo voltaic cells are a good deal more efficient and much
easier to use.

The new thin film photo voltaic can be attached to many surfaces, like the outsides of buildings, or the tops of cars. And can be attached like a sticker.

Lumeta: peel & stick solar - 2.25 kw in 34 minutes YouTube Video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJrD0VHaMp0&feature=related

IB roof systems, thin film solar flat roof - 5 kw in 2.5 hours YouTube Video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKsOpDSRl50&feature=related
------------------------------

The dream is most definatly here.
We just need to reach out our hands.

And this is just sun, there is also tremendous amounts of wind and water power on the planet, and huge amounts of geothermal energy inside.

There is no energy scaricity, there is plenty for all.

----------------------------------

You can buy renewable energy from someone else, here is how.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Energy_Certificates

--------------------------------

Or you can get all kinds of tax breaks for installing your own systems.
http://www.dsireusa.org/
http://www.energy.gov/taxbreaks.htm
http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/genericfederal.cfm?CurrentPageID=1&state=us&ee=1&re=1

And last but definatly not least.

President Obama via the stimulus plan has doubled the renewable energy tax credit plan.

The tax credit is for 30% or more off the cost of renewable energy devices like photo voltaic cells, or windmills.

---------------------------------

But dont forget, reducing our use is definatly part of the solution.

MTI · #3 03-16-2009, 03:42 PM

Solar water heating here, with tax credits and subsidy by local power company, is a no brainer.

Wind farms, ocean wave tech, geothermal, deep ocean water cooling for buildings . . . all realities in this state.

RichC · #4 03-16-2009, 04:32 PM

All electric home,
100% windmill generated power.
From Green Mountain Energy.

Veggie oil for fuel in the cars, truck, and tractor.

Veggie oil and compressed hardwood sawdust logs
for extra heat via the fireplace in the winter.

Palangi · #5 03-16-2009, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

In a clear sky, there's about 1kW per sq.m. of solar energy.

The radius of the Earth is 6.4E6 m.

So it presents to the Sun an area of 1.29E14 sq.m.

So the Earth intercepts about 1.3E17 watts of solar power,

Which is about 1.1E22 joules a day.

To put that into perspective,
enough sunlight hits the earth in a little under an hour
to power the eintire planet for a year.

The dream is here.

-------------------------

Or look at it this way.

If we could cover roughly the equivilant space of indiana with older tech photo voltaic cells, we could power the entire united states.

And the next generation of photo voltaic cells are a good deal more efficient and much
easier to use.

The new thin film photo voltaic can be attached to many surfaces, like the outsides of buildings, or the tops of cars. And can be attached like a sticker.

Lumeta: peel & stick solar - 2.25 kw in 34 minutes YouTube Video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJrD0VHaMp0&feature=related

IB roof systems, thin film solar flat roof - 5 kw in 2.5 hours YouTube Video...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKsOpDSRl50&feature=related

All these technological advances brought to you by capitalism, not by government bureaucrats.

LUVMBDiesels · #6 03-16-2009, 09:02 PM

I love the statistics that say if we only cover Idaho with solar cells we could power the entire country. I have also heard the same thing with New Mexico as the state. My question is, what do we do with the people and things in Idaho when we cover it with solar cells

I think wind, solar, oil, nuke,and coal will all need to be exploited. I am currently working on a wind turbine project of my own.
Once the idea gets a provisional patent, I will let the cat out of the bag ( I am a dirty rotted money grabbing Capitalist you know)

RichC · #7 03-16-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels

I love the statistics that say if we only cover Idaho with solar cells we could power the entire country. I have also heard the same thing with New Mexico as the state. My question is, what do we do with the people and things in Idaho when we cover it with solar cells

I think wind, solar, oil, nuke,and coal will all need to be exploited. I am currently working on a wind turbine project of my own.
Once the idea gets a provisional patent, I will let the cat out of the bag ( I am a dirty rotted money grabbing Capitalist you know)

.

You really think that way.
You dont have to move the people out to put the solar pannels in.

Dude, if we just covered the rooves of all the WalMarts we would be most of the way there.

RichC · #8 03-16-2009, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

All these technological advances brought to you by capitalism, not by government bureaucrats.

Sorry you are wrong.

Most of the photovoltaic, and wind technology has come from government funded research.
And from universities.

There is not enough profit in it for capitolists.

But I am sure that they will reap the rewards of socialism once again when the technology gets more profitable, like has happend with almost every other form of technology.

Facisim, you pay for it, you make it, you sell it, and we take all the money.

Palangi · #9 03-16-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Sorry you are wrong.

Most of the photovoltaic, and wind technology has come from government funded research.
And from universities.

There is not enough profit in it for capitolists.

But I am sure that they will reap the rewards of socialism once again when the technology gets more profitable, like has happend with almost every other form of technology.

Facisim, you pay for it, you make it, you sell it, and we take all the money.

Wrong as usual.

The company I work for has been involved in solar R&D for years.

Solar is now one of the more profitable divisions, and is expected to remain that way for the forseable future.

I agree with you on one point, however.... The capitol has nothing to do with it.

cmac2012 · #10 03-16-2009, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

All these technological advances brought to you by capitalism, not by government bureaucrats.

Damn those gubmint bureaucrats.

Here in the Republic of Bezerkletown, govt. dudes came up with a scheme to fund solar power for long term homeowners. They recoup the cost in extra property taxes FOR THAT HOUSE but the good news for the homeowner is the energy savings is about equal to the extra taxes they pay. Takes about 10 years to pay it off and they they have net savings for life.

Damn socialists.

Fitz · #11 03-16-2009, 10:39 PM

http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10961890

Quote:

Most of Germany's electricity comes from coal-fired and nuclear plants. But the former are unpopular because of their relatively high greenhouse-gas emissions, and the latter because of the fear of a catastrophic accident. So in 1991 Germany adopted a renewable-energy law, now known as the EEG, which encourages investment by cross-subsidising renewable electricity fed into the grid. The law is popular with those who support the rapid introduction of new clean technology. Stefan Schurig of the World Future Council, a green think-tank in Hamburg, calls it “the best law of its kind worldwide”.....

But the government is not so sure. It has proposed a revision to the EEG, which calls for a shift away from solar and towards other forms of renewable energy, and offshore wind in particular. As things stand, the feed-in tariff for solar goes down by 5% every year. But new proposals call for a cut of 9.2% next year, and 7-8% thereafter.

The problem is not just the expense of the existing law. Cheerleaders for solar had hoped that the increased demand for panels would help manufacturers reduce unit costs, and thus make solar more competitive in the long run. Instead, the rush into solar has led to a shortage of the high-grade silicon used to make the cells, which has soared in price from $25 per kilogram in 2003 to around $400 today.

Indeed, such is the demand for solar panels in Germany that it has kept prices high globally. This is wonderful for manufacturers, but makes it more expensive to install solar capacity in sunnier parts of the world, where it would generate more electricity. The EEG's generous rates for solar amounted to “picking winners on a grand scale”, says Dieter Helm, an expert on energy policy at the University of Oxford. A euro in cross-subsidies spent on wind power, rather than solar, produces more generating capacity and a larger reduction in carbon emissions....

In the long run, the hope is that Germany's clean-tech industry will be able to survive without any subsidies, and will do its bit to preserve the country's status as an industrial titan. Yet unless solar power becomes competitive with cheaper forms of generation, it will never make much of a dent in the nuclear and coal-fired power on which Germany relies. And then there is the problem of storing it for use on cloudy days and at night. Meanwhile, the unlikely flowering of solar panels beneath Germany's cloudy skies continues.

Palangi · #12 03-16-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Damn those gubmint bureaucrats.

Here in the Republic of Bezerkletown, govt. dudes came up with a scheme to fund solar power for long term homeowners. They recoup the cost in extra property taxes FOR THAT HOUSE but the good news for the homeowner is the energy savings is about equal to the extra taxes they pay. Takes about 10 years to pay it off and they they have net savings for life.

Damn socialists.

Good for them, however, may I point out that what you are describing is not a technical advance, but merely a method of financing the purchase of the product. Damn capitOlists !!

cmac2012 · #13 03-16-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz

http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10961890

Photovoltaic panels are much less efficient than parabolic mirror or Fresnel mirror plants. They can be installed in smaller bundles and still work but beyond home sized systems, they are not the way to go, IMO.

Botnst · #14 03-16-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palangi

All these technological advances brought to you by capitalism, not by government bureaucrats.

We should pass a law that alternative energy systems officially make sense.

On a related topic, I think Pi should equal 10.

cmac2012 · #15 03-16-2009, 11:56 PM

Grid costs can be very high. Some friends of mine in Eastern Wa were looking at around $200 K for a half mile line from the highway to their homestead, IIRC. I could be off on the figure but it was way more than they could afford. Turned out that it was practical for them to use alt. energy.