I'm thinking of changing my plumbing style to Pex instead of copper. What do I need to know to make the switch? Seems like the crimping tools on Ebay are not that expensive.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

We are using Pex in an apartment we are building in the hayloft of our barn. I got strong resistance and almost no guidance from the people at the various plumbing supply places I tried. There was a big class action over failed Pex fittings a while back and it seems to have everybody working behind plumbing supply counters spooked these days. Our apartment is heated with radiant floor heat using Pex tubing, so I figured I might as well go all in. If there's a problem with Pex, the simple plumbing system in the apartment will be the least of my worries.

One reason I went with Pex is its reported ability to withstand freezing without breaking, an important consideration in a hayloft apartment. I caught all kinds of flack from the countermen on that one. I would ask them whether they agree that Pex is more freeze resistant than other types of plumbing materials. After pausing with a blank stare, they usually said anything will freeze if you get it cold enough. I said that I realized that, but that Pex supposedly will expand without bursting. The counterman at that point would look at me like I was some kind of dumba** and then say they don't like Pex. That was about the extent of the technical assistance I got from any of the countermen.

For no particular reason I settled on Zurn tubing which use crimp fittings. For an amateur like me, installing Pex is much, much easier and faster than installing copper. Somebody who is good at sweating joints might disagree.

If I had it to do again, I might try Wirsbo. They have a proprietary tool for doing the joints which is entirely different than Zurn's crimp tools. I don't have any good reason for recommending Wirsbo except that I've had knowledgeable people say good things about it, although their comments came after I was committed to Zurn.

Consider getting new crimping tools. They come with instructions for adjusting the tool to account for wear, which implies to me that crimping tools wear out. I would not trust my ability to judge whether a particular crimping tool is worn out and I would hate to have any problem with the joints down the road.

I used a Sharkbite fitting to attach the Pex to an existing 3/4" copper line. Those things are great, especially for someone like me who can't sweat very well. I have had a devil of a time trying to sweat a copper fitting into an existing water pipe. The Sharkbite fitting fits copper, PVC, and Pex. It just slips on and holds pressure, hopefully for a long time. All the plumbing supply places have them. So do Home Depot and Lowes. Expensive, but worth it if you are only doing a couple of fittings. Here is their website: http://www.sharkbite.com/

And by the way, what is it about people working supply counters? As a breed, they are some of the most pessimistic and negative people that I have encountered. They don't know their product lines worth a darn. The only information they offer are all the reasons why what I intend to do won't work. Maybe it's because they can see that I am an amateur, but the word "No" seems to be forming on their lips before I even say "Hello." One of the plumbing guys lectured me for about 10 minutes, nonstop, while we were waiting for their incompetent warehouse people to find my order. It was exceedingly unpleasant and not the least bit informative because it was obvious that he had no clue about the product I was attempting to purchase from his company. BTW, I exclude from this comment people working the parts counters at automotive and farm equipment parts places. The ones I use are knowledgeable and helpful.

Today I rented a floor sander from Home Depot. (An article I found in "Fine Homebuilding" magazine recommended it as being idiot proof.) I show up at Home Depot and ask an employee where the tool rental counter is. He directs me to the rental department and then walks along with me asking why I think I will be able to do this job and whether I realize how difficult it is. I tell him that I think I will be OK, besides I am only doing a couple of stair landings. He says, "Why are you renting a sander for that?" I felt like I owed him some kind of apology for being there to rent a sander. He was friendly and trying to be helpful, so I give him points for effort, but why do I have to endure that sort of attitude from these people?

Sorry for the hijack. Thank you for letting me rant.

Thanks. The tools I looked at on Ebay were new not used. How much did you have to pay for your crimping tool? I've seen Sharkbite fittings before but haven't used them since I can sweat copper pretty well. I'll probably go with whatever tubing is available at HD since it's only a half mile from my house. Do you get comparable water flow in the same nominal size of Pex and copper?

As a class of people, plumbers seem to be about as easy going a group of people I've known. Odd that counterpeople in plumbing supply have different attitudes. Perhaps that's why they ended up behind the counter and not actually plumbing.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Personally I prefer copper, I too though can sweat copper pretty well. I even plumbed my garage with copper for the compressor.

BUT I have no negatives with PEX. Although my same fear with ROMEX, an errant nail or screw punching through it. With PEX I would also think of wear when it touches things, there has to be some movement when the water is turned on and off. OK many many years to wear through, but I build for the long term.

ROMEX scares me big time, I recently did some electrical cleanup for a friend, and found a perfect example of that. Fortunately it did not case any problems. Another close friend did punch a nail through the ROMEX once, luckily it was a GFI circuit and popped quickly.

I know ROMEX can be safe too, IF installed correctly. So do the same with the PEX, learn and think about the issue's, install with care.

__________________
KLK, MCSE

1990 500SL

I was always taught to respect my elders.
I don't have to respect too many people anymore.

Unless your really seeking to minimize cost, I'd use copper. The class action suit against Zurn/Pex is focused on the fittings, however, not the tubing itself. With that in mind, a careful person would make sure that as many fittings as possible are in areas with the easiest access. In fact, I would map my fittings, so if I had a problem, I would know exactly where to cut my access holes. A friend of mine in CO is currently replacing fittings in his house, in floor heat, that he installed 9 years ago. Every fitting at his manifold was oozing. He is an engineer, and a perfectionist, so I do not see the fault lying with the installation. If you are doing radiant heat, the runs should not have any joints that are buried, and similar install for domestic water would be advised.

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On some nights I still believe that a car with the fuel gauge on empty can run about fifty more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. - HST

1983 300SD - 305000
1984 Toyota Landcruiser - 190000
1994 GMC Jimmy - 203000

https://media.giphy.com/media/X3nnss8PAj5aU/giphy.gif

I did my house with Pex about 10 years ago. I also did a partial renovation on another house with Pex about 3 years ago. I have a Zurn crimper set from eBay.

Pex is the best thing ever. I can't even imagine going back to copper. Ugh. Pex is the only thing they appear to use on new residential construction around here.

It is super-easy to install. Because of the flexible nature of the pipe, you can make most pipe runs without any joints. It just bends around most obstacles.

Plus, you can adjust the joints after crimping. If a 90° elbow is pointing the wrong way, just twist it. If a shutoff valve would be easier to access if it faced another direction, just move it. Try that with copper!

I've never had a leak. Ever. Even in my poorly insulated kitchen floor, where the pipes would freeze solid every time it dropped below -25° in the winter (I finally moved them last winter to fix this!)

A tip: they sell the Pex pipe in rolls and in straight sections. The stuff in the rolls wants to stay rolled permanently. Unless you need a very long piece (or are plumbing a spiral staircase), buy the straight sections.

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1989 250TD Wagon 5-speed, 160,000mi ::: Dark gray metallic / black cloth
1984 190D-2.2 5-speed, 287,000mi ::: Silver-blue metallic / black MB-tex ::: SOLD

No, we use copper in all the new houses and condos. After the lawsuite no thanks, can't afford to take the chance.

The price difference isn't really that much. Also our plumber won't use it and we don't want to switch, he is cheap and fast.

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1999 SL500
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

I've watched every season of This Old House on PBS for as long as I can remember, and they've used Pex and several projects, and they highly recommend it.

I remember they commented that it is used all over Europe, and slowly gaining acceptance across the U.S.

__________________
Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

on a side related note, PEX is compatible with biodiesel too though I'm not suggesting it for fuel lines. I've read many people using long runs of PEX tubing instead of black pipe ($$$).

I will be using PEX for a portion of my biodiesel processor soon.

We have been using PEX in our latest apartment building renovation and, so far, I am convinced it is the best way to go. We use brass fittings and solid copper crimps, finding them less expensive overall than the "cheaper" style. The cost per foot, of the pipe itself, and the ease of installation, makes it practical to have a central manifold (or in our case a manifold for each apartment) and individual "home runs" to each fixture. The only joints are at the terminations (fixture and manifold). All of our fixtures are of the "green" low-flow, water conserving type. We are using 3/8" supplies to the sinks and toilets and 1/2" to the tub/showers.

I am of the old school and generally have little use for plastics. Most of our building mechanical rooms look like submarine control rooms with "racks" of copper pipe, all parallel and neat, a truly beautiful thing to behold.

However, I am in construction administration and we have been seeing significant problems with the copper fittings installed over the past 6-8 years. It seems that the bulk of the available copper fittings come from China and there is a serious quality control issue. After a couple of years in service these fittings develop pinholes. A local developer recently spent a small fortune replacing the copper pipe with PEX in a twelve unit building that had just been "gut" rehabbed, with all new copper plumbing installed five years ago. He determined that it was cheaper than continuing to replace the copper fittings, and repair the water damage, that he had been plagued with for three years.

Best of luck,
Jim

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2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

Some good info. Sweating copper gave me fits off and on til I finally got it down. Must clean every surface very well, every time, no matter how shiny and new it looks. A thin film of corrosion looks just fine. Water vapor turns copper a bit more orange in color than freshly buffed copper. The wire wheels you chuck into a drill really shine it up. Get those 1/2 and 3/4 dia. wire brushes for doing the inside of couplings too.

Your problem on the fitting may have been due to small amounts of water dripping through the line. It only takes a little to keep the copper from reaching sufficient heat for the solder to flow.

On old trick is to use Wonder bread, crusts removed, wadded up into balls and stuffed into the pipe, several inches above the joint. Holds the water at bay long enough to make the joint and then it will wash out of the line through a fawcett quick enough when pressure is back on. I try to turn on the least complex fixture downriver of the joint. Less potential trouble though I think the bread would wash out of just about anything.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Holy crap. That would piss me off in a serious way. I've got some work covered up by finished walls out and about and I have no idea about the integrity of the fittings.

There's some news out about Chinese sheetrock that emits sulfur sufficient to corrode all sorts that which is corrode-able in houses in the US.

http://blog.njeifs.com/chinese_drywall/

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I got two crimping tools - one for 1/2" and one for 3/4" - but they were part of a bigger order with all the other materials, so I can't recall what I paid. I have the ticket at my office with the breakdown, but I won't be there until Monday.

Earlier I mentioned Wirsbo fittings. After thinking about it, I recall a comment from one plumber who does volume work for a big national builder. He said his guys had trouble with the joints until the factory rep gave them a few lessons. Now he says it's the only way to go. FWIW.I don't have data on that, but I think it would depend on how many fittings you have. Copper fittings are full size. Pex fittings are smaller than the tube. I don't know whether they significantly affect the flow resistance.That's my experience, too.That's as good a guess as any.

I originally bought the "one size fits all" crimp tool for a bit less than $100. Wasn't real happy with the quality of the crimps, and they were pricey. Then switched to the solid copper crimps that require a crimp tool for each size at about the same cost; each tool. Cheaper in the long haul because the crimps are 1/4 the cost of those used with the fits-all tool.

Flow would be marginally less but with the low-flow fixtures we are using it is a non-issue.

Jim

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2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

I've had exactly this problem and couldn't figure out why it happened.

I probably wouldn't replumb a whole house with home runs. But I have a couple of rental properties and my own house and all have a fair amount of original galvanized pipe in them. Periodically, I have to replace sections and that's where I'd use Pex. How do you deal with shut off valves at sinks? Do you firmly attach the Pex to the wall or just let the valve hang on the Pex?

Does anyone have an 'uncrimping' tool? Is is necessary? My neighbor has a cracked freezeproof faucet in an addition and it's on a Pex section. I would have fixed it for her but I was unsure of the procedure for disconnecting. The fitting for the Pex is soldered into the faucet.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13