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  #1  
Old 05-19-2009, 02:15 PM
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Acorn

Acorn came up as a tangent to the the pro-life thread. It doesn't really relate to the abortion issue, but it does seem like something that can get a good fight going here (note that I said "good" fight, not just a fight), so I thought I would start a new thread.

Jolly Roger posted the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Roger
Perhaps you can post the list of fraudulent votes cast and fraudulent voters caught because of ACORN's activities, then we can see where you score on the truth meter.
In response, MedMech posted an impressive list of allegations of fraudulent activity by Acorn. I read through the material provided by MedMech and didn't see anything that responsed to JR's question. For all of the allegations against Acorn, I still haven't seen evidence that they have caused a single fraudulent vote to be cast. I read the stuff provided by MedMech quickly, so I might have missed it.

I raise this question not in defense of Acorn, but to question the good faith of the mostly Republican people raising the alarm about voter fraud. It seems to me that tougher voter registration laws such as the Indiana law recently upheld by the Supreme Court will cause more harm than good. People who should be entitled to vote will be unable to meet the requirements, we know that for sure, but it is not clear that any fraudulent votes will be prevented.

I have always had trouble understanding how an organization like Acorn could cause enough fraudulent votes to be cast to change the outcome of an election. For one thing, who are these people willing to risk going to jail just for the opportunity to cast a single illicit vote? It doesn't add up.

Based on a google search, I gather that MedMech's list came from a website called "Rotten Acorn" - http://rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html I don't know who is behind that website.
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  #2  
Old 05-19-2009, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dculkin View Post
Based on a google search, I gather that MedMech's list came from a website called "Rotten Acorn" - http://rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html I don't know who is behind that website.
Obviously someone that is keeping up with Acorns rotten tactics, like signing the Dallas Cowboys.
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  #3  
Old 05-19-2009, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Medmech View Post
Obviously someone that is keeping up with Acorns rotten tactics, like signing the Dallas Cowboys.
Are they reliable?
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  #4  
Old 05-19-2009, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dculkin View Post
Are they reliable?

The lawsuits they posted are. I can't say the same about the Cowboys.
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  #5  
Old 05-19-2009, 03:10 PM
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I read through the list. How is it that there are no suits against ACORN proper?

Presumably it would be easy as pie to "flip" any number of the folks who falsified the registrations if they were instructed by their superiors, contractors, etc. to intentionally submit false voter registrations.
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  #6  
Old 05-19-2009, 03:33 PM
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Some confused souls confuse allegations with judgements.....

Duh!
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  #7  
Old 05-19-2009, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe View Post
Some confused souls confuse allegations with judgements.....

Duh!
I have no idea what you mean. Are you saying that the Rotten Acorn website is a "judgement"? It looks like a bunch of allegations to me. Among the allegations is that some people were convicted of voter fraud activities, but I don't see that website as an original source.

Rotten Acorn might be completely reliable, but based on the information provided so far, it is a list of allegations. I don't say that to denigrate the website, just to point out that we can't assume that the hearsay the website presents is established as true.

Last edited by Honus; 05-19-2009 at 04:05 PM.
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  #8  
Old 05-19-2009, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTI View Post
I read through the list. How is it that there are no suits against ACORN proper?

Presumably it would be easy as pie to "flip" any number of the folks who falsified the registrations if they were instructed by their superiors, contractors, etc. to intentionally submit false voter registrations.
In the Deep South they use independent subs--no respondent superior because of loose contract terms like "increase presence in precincts in accordance with state and local party rules and statutory guidelines governing elections." AFLCIO does the same thing--the rep gets everyone liquored up and tells them what to do on voting day--then denies anything but what the contract says.

I've seen the same thing work in reverse in a South Carolina Senate race where the GOP used college students to perform the same chicanery.
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  #9  
Old 05-19-2009, 04:12 PM
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Then I suppose it remains unproven what, if any culpability, the national organization has for the actions of the third parties. There is certainly precident for prosecuting wrongdoing by ACORN if it exists under RICO or other statutes, particularly if they co-conspired by failing to report illegal activity.
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  #10  
Old 05-19-2009, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTI View Post
Then I suppose it remains unproven what, if any culpability, the national organization has for the actions of the third parties. There is certainly precident for prosecuting wrongdoing by ACORN if it exists under RICO or other statutes, particularly if they co-conspired by failing to report illegal activity.

I could care less--just pointing out why it may not be easy as pie to flip one's superiors. We have all sorts of voter fraud suits going year round in the South--I sort of accept it as a fact of life. Hell, the Republicans even have an overwhelmingly stupid one going here right now trying to keep the blacks down by attempting to require voters to present ID Talk about a waste of money. Morris Dees' buddies are getting paid though.

I doubt any sitting AUSAs are interested much in losing their jobs over going after ACORN with RICO
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  #11  
Old 05-19-2009, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dculkin View Post
The funny thing about that post is that it only makes sense if it is interpreted completely opposite of the way you intended.

I have not done any sort of in-depth research of my own, but it appears that Acorn was the victim of fraud. It is not clear that it committed any fraud of its own. For example, look at this article: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09130/968869-155.stm So, AFAIK, fraudulent Acorn voters truly are mythical.

Are you aware of anything Acorn did that resulted in any fraudulent votes?

As for the WMDs, they were mythical and I think Bush and Cheney knew they were mythical before we invaded. Their decision to invade only makes sense if they knew that the WMD weren't there.

And, AFAIK, Bush/Cheney are the only ones who got caught doing anything wrong here.

Acorn is a victim of fraud? That's a crock. If so, they sure seem to go out of their way to be "victimized" every time an election cycle comes around.

Did any of Acorn's fraudulent registrations actually vote? Hell if I know. Show me where I claimed that they did..... Trying to prove how many fraudulent voters got away with it is like trying to prove how many drivers got away with running stopsigns today.

A couple of things are certain, however. For one, Acorn has been involved in attempted voter fraud many, many times, and not just in the recent election. For another, it appears that a hell of a lot of Democrats are more than willing to accept attempted voter fraud as simply business as usual. (If the shoe fits, ......)

Why does Acorn keep trying this scam? Again, hell if I know. Maybe it is intended as a tactic of disruption. If so, you can thank Saul Alinsky for that one. (Say, didn't Obama teach seminars in Alinsky tactics)? Maybe they are probing to see what they can get away with, maybe in preparation for a Hugo Chavez banana republic style election. Attempted voter fraud is a crime. You're supposed to be a lawyer, I'm surprised you didn't know that.

WMD's didn't exist?? Some of them certainly did. Sodem Hussein used them on Iran as well as on his own people. Too bad for your side the mofo is dead. I'm sure Obama would love to have invited him over for tea and cookies.
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  #12  
Old 05-19-2009, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palangi View Post
...Did any of Acorn's fraudulent registrations actually vote? Hell if I know. Show me where I claimed that they did...
That's what I thought you meant when you said this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palangi View Post
...Mythical Acorn voters...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palangi
...Trying to prove how many fraudulent voters got away with it is like trying to prove how many drivers got away with running stopsigns today...
That's true, except that we know people run stop signs. I ran one today. What is much less likely to occur, IMHO, is for someone to risk jail time for casting a fraudulent vote, especially in a major election. The risk doesn't justify the reward. Except in rare cases, the winning margin in presidential races in individual states will be thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of votes. Where is Acorn going to find anyone willing to risk going to jail to improve its candidate's chances by one vote? It doesn't make sense.

As I said before, I don't know whether Acorn is a good organization, but I resent the GOP using Acorn to help stifle legitimate voters. The Indiana voter registration law upheld by the Supreme Court will almost certainly disenfranchise a larger number of legitimate voters than it will prevent fraudulent votes. The scandal here is not Acorn, it is the hypocritical and anti-democratic (note the small "d") efforts of the GOP to disenfranchise voters.
Quote:
...A couple of things are certain, however. For one, Acorn has been involved in attempted voter fraud many, many times, and not just in the recent election...
If that's true, then why do the people on your side of this issue keep raising all these cases where Acorn did nothing wrong? So many of the supposed fraudulent voter registrations from Acorn were flagged by them.
Quote:
For another, it appears that a hell of a lot of Democrats are more than willing to accept attempted voter fraud as simply business as usual. (If the shoe fits, ......)
So long as it is only attempted voter fraud, it's better than GOP-style disenfranchisement.
Quote:
... Attempted voter fraud is a crime. You're supposed to be a lawyer, I'm surprised you didn't know that. ...
Why did you think I didn't know that?
Quote:
WMD's didn't exist?? Some of them certainly did..
Not in amounts that threatened us. Isn't that the point?
Quote:
Sodem Hussein used them on Iran as well as on his own people.
Years and years ago. By the time we invaded, he was toothless. (I can't believe people still debate that issue.)
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Too bad for your side the mofo is dead. I'm sure Obama would love to have invited him over for tea and cookies.

Last edited by Honus; 05-19-2009 at 10:46 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-20-2009, 12:14 AM
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Here's some fun viewing: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/05/barney-frank-faces-down-bachmann-on-acorn-funding.php?ref=fpa

Barney Frank asks a good question: If Acorn is such a left-wing organization, why did it receive millions of dollars from the Bush administration while the GOP controlled Congress?
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  #14  
Old 05-20-2009, 06:32 AM
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Not ACORN related, but here in MD, Casa Maryland is alleged to work it this way:
State bans the use of photo ID for voter identification. Illegal immigrants come to MD, and are directed to the office of a local office. Here they are issued an ID and the name and address of a democrat voter. Presumably a voter who will not be using that name and address, but are still on the roles.
As to whether or not any of this is true, I cannot say. I know that state does not allow any form of photo ID to be used, and the state has tried to lengthen the days and times that the polls are open. For a state as small as Maryland, this seems to be only to allow more voting fraud--you can drive anywhere in this state in 5 hours; you can drive completyt across it, depending on where you choose in anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour or so. ( Alowing days for voting would make it bus caravans of fraudulent voters quite possible.
Like I said, I cannot vouch for any of the fraud allegations. I have heard them from people who claim to know, and who are attempting to stop it. Are they completely truthful?--who knows.
This much I do know---allowing illegals to vote is every bit as much voter fraud as preventing citizens from voting--both are wrong.
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  #15  
Old 05-20-2009, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
Not ACORN related, but here in MD, Casa Maryland is alleged to work it this way:
State bans the use of photo ID for voter identification. Illegal immigrants come to MD, and are directed to the office of a local office. Here they are issued an ID and the name and address of a democrat voter. Presumably a voter who will not be using that name and address, but are still on the roles.
As to whether or not any of this is true, I cannot say. I know that state does not allow any form of photo ID to be used, and the state has tried to lengthen the days and times that the polls are open. For a state as small as Maryland, this seems to be only to allow more voting fraud--you can drive anywhere in this state in 5 hours; you can drive completyt across it, depending on where you choose in anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour or so. ( Alowing days for voting would make it bus caravans of fraudulent voters quite possible.
Like I said, I cannot vouch for any of the fraud allegations. I have heard them from people who claim to know, and who are attempting to stop it. Are they completely truthful?--who knows.
This much I do know---allowing illegals to vote is every bit as much voter fraud as preventing citizens from voting--both are wrong.
The risk of casting a fraudulent vote is so much greater than the potential reward, I don't see why anyone would do it. Take the 2008 Presidential election in Virginia. If I put my liberty on the line and took the risk of casting a fraudulent vote for Barack Obama, it would increase his vote total by 0.00005%. So, where are these brave souls that Acorn recruits to risk ruining their lives for such a tiny reward?
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