Plantman,
One of the things I thought spelled the coming of this crissis is I saw on the news a few years ago, that 1 in 5 of the condos or houses in Florida or at least one of its cities was on speculative buying. Yes, flipping for a profit. It sounded more to me like a pyramid scheme to an extent. Or at least like the oil flux of a few years ago or the Hunts Brothers and silver.
The other was one day I was coming into to work. On the radio was that the Saudiis were thinking of going into Iraq to protect the Sunnis there. This was during US control (??) and a lot of sectarian violence. It just happened that as I pasted a local import parts dealer, there was a MB240D manual tranny sitting there for sale. I thought about biodiesel and surival if gas went up much more. I bought the car, but spent a lot on it and have never run WVO or attempted biodeisel. Maybe if and when prices go back up.
Tom

The only non-legal advice I can give anyone is that you must pay your bills until you hit the courthouse steps, its a much smaller hit on your credit if you wait until you get behind. I see many credit reports daily and sometimes the people with recent BK's have better scores than people with limited credit or got behind on a couple bills, credit scoring and credit cards are the biggest sham this country has ever seen.

If you have even the most minor problem with debt you should consult with an attorney immediately.

and for never raid your retirement account to pay unsecured debt.

Any more advice?

Here are a few things I have learned:

Get a couple opinions.

The first atty I went to tried to convince me to put everything I owed money on into a repayment plan. Like my almost paid off cars. He suggested I enter them to lower my monthly payments, but I would be basically refinancing the balance for a longer period of time. Why? As it turns out, the atty's get a percentage back from the courts after the plan. I can only assume, the more debt you have, the higher your payment, the higher percentage the sheister will get.

The 2nd person I went to see, and ultimately the one I settled on had a very good grasp of what was going on, listened intently, wasn't in a rush and didn't mind me asking the same questions wrapped up in different versions. Answers were on the top of her head, very impressive in her recall of things, experience of over 14 years, etc...

The 3rd place I went to was a bankruptcy mill, packed to the gills with clients......made me feel worse about my situation then I already did. Kinda like, "I can't believe you have stooped so low" sort of thing.

The fourth was referral thru a pal who is also an atty. What a hot body on this one, gorgeous woman....if I had money I'd.....never mind that. She apparently just got into bankruptcy because I knew more than she did. She was constantly checking her notes, looking for answers to things that were relatively simple. Income thresholds, what you can and cannot protect....

When I went back to the one I felt the most comfortable with, I explained that I had gotten other opinions, and mentioned to her about the hot babe not knowing much. She explained to me that bankruptcy is very lucrative right now, lawyers who were making a killing doing other things are jumping over because those things are dry right now, and you wind up with someone like the hot chick I mentioned. Did I mention she was hot?

Anyway, I filed on December 7th because in my case, in order to avoid paying taxes on the 1099C that I will be getting for the loss on the investment property, I had to file before the foreclosure sale which was scheduled for the 8th.

Prior to filing you have to submit a slew of paperwork in order for the atty's to determine a payment plan(if you are filing a Chapter 13).

I had to file an extension for submitting certain docs since I was running short on time. Corporate docs mostly. There are no extensions granted on paystubs, bank statements, statements related to debt, etc....that has to be in on time.

I have a general idea of what I have to pay back monthly for 5 years, plus or minus. I won't know for sure until I submit all of my paperwork on my 2 businesses, the more value my assets have, the more I pay, so I am getting that taken care of in the next week or so.

Once all the papers are submitted, I will have a firm payment. I have to make my 1st of 60 payments 30 or 45 days after submitting those docs(unsure right now, kinda late).

Then you have a hearing(941 I think) with the courts and creditors where any objections may be raised by the courts, creditors or us, questions about what happened may be asked, etc...and then as far as us going to court, we are done the rest is handled by the atty over the next 6 months, whereby creditors can file their claims, if they don't they get nothing.

Your payment to the trustee in a chapter 13 case is determined by your assets and their value, or your income, whichever is higher and can be done in 3 or 5 years depending on your circumstances.

Your income is based on the last 3 months average of husband and wife. The atty's ask for 6 months to see if you are bullshotting them, but the court requires 3 for filing.They can ask for more, I believe they can go back 4 years, but if your atty has done their job correctly, the 3 months prior to filing is what everything is based on.

You can also pay more monthly while in the plan to make it end quicker, if things improve etc...

I am sure there are things that I have missed out on and may have made an error or two in my description but that's my take on it.

One thing I do know is my phone rings a lot less than it did prior to the filing and that has been a relief.

The process is started, I'm not proud of it, but it is what it is.

__________________
Enough about me, how are you doing?

I helped a few people go through this in the middle 1990's. My memories of how it went then.....

For starters all of these were professional people who had been 'downsized' from major companies and, after about 18 to 24 months of looking, had been unable to land a job. But anyone who wants a job can find something, you say? Well, in the real world, no.

Being without a job and being in debt is very unkind to your credit rating. If your credit score is below some magic number you will never land a job. You can have the worlds best education and any number of skills, but a bad credit rating can put you in the 'irresponsible' class and no one will touch you.

A guy I went to high school with became a lawyer who got cleaned out in a divorce. After he went through the BK process he took it on as a full-time practice, so I steered people to him.

I also knew these people well, and all of them were there because of medical bills. All of them. Not their medical bills, but mostly their parents. Then they lost their jobs and could not pay the CC bills most of them had run up.

They had to fill out a list of the assets they owned and go to a 'hearing' where the Judge asked a few questions. Some of their creditors had sent letters or reps to the hearings asking the Judge to enforce their debts and the Judge dismissed all of them.

The Judge asked what debts they wanted to assume and they all said their house, so he asked them how they intended to pay for the house and they had to have a real answer for that.

The Judge then dismissed their debts and that was that. About two years later they started getting offers for credit cards where they had to put up about $500 in escrow in order to get a card with a $400 limit.

I spoke to one of these folks about six months ago about their credit score. It is now 820. It is also about 15 years later and none of them have had any major crisis like they did back then.

As an aside... In 1996 50% of all BK was in Texas, and 50% of those were in a city called Plano. I mention this because the Cons are always saying they are the most fiscal responsible types out there, and Plano is the most Republican city in a Republican state.

There is a lot of noise out there about the BK process, but there is also a lot of fact. One just needs to be able to accept it.

My opinion of the process? When you took out the loan you were charged a specific rate to borrow the money. The rate is based on the risk you will not pay it back. The BK process is not a social thing; it is a business thing.

How can there be any 'shame' connected with a legal and ethical process? A bank has no soul and feels no pain, so there is no need to concern yourself with any suffering on the part of the bank.

In business you do not get what you deserve. You get what you contract for and you should not expect more.

So the moral is to do everything possible to have little or no debt. If you do lose your job, have a medical issue, etc. outstanding debt will make it even more difficult to recover. I cannot imagine borrowing money for anything except my primary residence.

There is also always the unseen like a divorce proceeding coming your way..Statistically it is always a possibility. Personal illness of longer duration is another possibility. Unexpected unemployment or reduced small business earnings. Or earnings not advancing fast if at all to to meet increasing costs and past commitments.

This medical thing with heavy co pays on drugs and treatments may not be a walk in the park either for certain conditions. It is almost better to be rich or poor than in the middle. Both the other groups usually have some protection.

The average person or couple has to run some risks when young. That is understandable to get anywhere. Actually this can be easily quantified into a little risk situation in comparison to no attempt to better your situation at all. It is just bad to continue living that way over a span or time frame of two many years.

Risk tends to increase with age of something going off the rails in real life. I have always felt that to plan on being past major risk before age forty is prefferable if possible. Usually it should not disrupt your lifestyle to plan this properly.

Already in my opinion since Hunter originally started this thread there seems to be a subtle change out there. I believe most commodities and services that are really required by all of us including utility cost etc are on the rise. This should give a boost to depressed real estate prices as well but unfortunatly in dollars that are worth less. Enough to do the job is what I wonder.

As I stated a long time ago and nothing has really changed my mind yet. We are well entrenched in a period of wealth reduction. Normally this would be inflation but there are a few spins on it.

I would guess it cost us more than 50 dollars a week for example or more to maintain an identical lifestyle than a period only two or three years ago. Wages and earnings are pretty static or declining.

Simple rule of supply and demand is working it's way through the system as well. This fortunatly also is an indication things are not truly stagnant even though on first observations may seem otherwise. The structure is evolving. Where to is anyones guess at this point. Yes bankrupcy unfortunatly is one possible result of being caught up in it all. Circumstances vary so much for people. Simple bad luck in timing can undo some.

You can go BK and your 401k is safe correct?

Serious illness is a big risk. Often you can't work and you are getting medical bills at the same time. I worked with a nurse from Germany that was shocked
at how worried about money patients were in the states.

Real estate was one of the most lucrative investments for a long time. But safe? When starter homes got priced out of reach for ordinary buyers, I became worried enough to sell my one investment property. I wanted the party to keep going, but I knew there was just no way.

__________________
1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

Do not base whether or not you should file for bankruptcy protection, by asking a bankruptcy attorney. That's like asking a dog if it's hungry.

Dave Ramsey financial guy on the radio will give a free assessment of your situation, and tell you yea, or neah on bankruptcy.

You advocate getting advice from a radio host? I thought you are better than that with this 'Wealth Procurator', whatever it means, and holder of BRKA and BRKB. It is like listening to Suze Orman. All BS.

__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.

I'll give him credit, his first line made sense:

Do not base whether or not you should file for bankruptcy protection, by asking a bankruptcy attorney. That's like asking a dog if it's hungry.

At least a radio host doesn't stand to make or not make money on the advice he gives you.

__________________
1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

There have been a few where I workd, who have followed Ramseys advice. I think they went through the program. I also see a few churches in my area that offer the program or something simular. I have talked to some of my coworkers about it, but not in great detail. I don't agree with everything. Basically minor stuff.
I don't know how Ramsey started out. Is he a financial guru who became a radio host? Or a radio host who became a financial celebrity? I think he started out as a financail planner or had the same problems and figured out a solution that worked for him.
Tom

On the job training by figuring it out for himself. Dave went bankrupt to the tune of $2 million dollars, and figured out that borrowing money (for anything but your home) was foolish to do. Some people agree with him, and some people don't.

I though he learned the hard way. I just wasn't sure. There was another financial guru in the late 80's early 90's. He was fairly good and amassed a mil or two, then went bankrupt and came back. I think he was more into the stock market and such.
I think he also recomended used cars a few years old and such. He did use credit cards, but you needed to pay them off every month. I just don't like someone being called a hack for being on the radio or TV. There are plenty of flakes though.
I'm not sure if Dave Ramsy is into fliping houses or such. I'm not sure that is good or bad. Some people do well with that.
Tom