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  #1  
Old 08-17-2009, 03:38 PM
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Equal outcomes in social matters: pro life excesses

It sorta amazes me how righties for whom the concept of equal outcomes in financial matters is anathema seem to think that equal outcomes can be had in personal matters. It would be nice if every child that came into the world was loved and wanted, especially if they are handicapped but sadly, it doesnít work that way.

Up until the recent past, those who delivered babies knew that a severely handicapped child had little chance of surviving and even less chance of having a life worth living. Medical science was crude and resources limited. Why is it that people have children? I mean besides the fact that if they like sex offspring are unavoidable? For most of human history it was to add new labor to the homestead or tribe and to perpetuate it. A child that could not pull its own weight and then some would become the object of scorn and abuse by its siblings and tribe-mates in short order.

Until very recently, a midwife or other birther would quietly suffocate a badly deformed child and say that it had been born stillborn. My friends here in the militant pro-life camp can call that selfish or barbaric if they wish but they werenít alive in that era when the luxury of believing that medical science can solve everything was not yet a reality.

Of course, medical science has limitations and many homes now exist for severely handicapped children whose parents can either no longer support them or just donít have the heart to care for them any longer. Iíve been in such places and itís heart wrenching.

I suggest those who denigrate anyone who decides to abort a deformed fetus put their money where their mouth is and volunteer or work (for low wages) at such a place.

Now is the point at which I will be accused of wishing to put such people to death at the earliest convenience. Oh boy, letís just demonize those in the other camp Ė itís much easier than trying to understand other points of view. Reminds me of Islamo-fanatics who believe that anyone not in their camp is an infidel worthy of exclusion at best, if not death.

If you want to hold the belief that each and every fertilized egg MUST be brought to full term and birth and that God frowns on any interruption of this, go for it. I find the practice of using abortion as a handy birth control method abhorrent myself and Iím not advocating that.

However, my cosmic belief system comes down somewhat on the side of re-incarnation Ė a sort of blend between Buddhist and Christian beliefs and I donít care if the bible doesnít say itís OK.

We know that some fetuses do not make it to live birth regardless of careful attempts by all involved to make that happen. Other children die before their first birthday Ė quite common in the third world. I believe that the suffering of such a being will aid them in their progress to a better next life. And perhaps having the misfortune of being conceived by parents who donít care enough for the eventual child, for whatever reason, such that they abort it will have a similar effect. I have no way of knowing for sure, just as the hard core Christian righties have no way of knowing for sure that they are going to be raptured up into Godís kingdom, something that is not mentioned anywhere in the bible, FWIW.

If some families honestly donít believe that they can withstand the challenge of caring for a handicapped child, even something so relatively mild as Downís syndrome, Iím not sure anybody has the right to force them to do so. We are in an unusual circumstance in human history. Are we to prohibit doctors from telling their patients that the fetus inside of them has this or that birth defect? And having heard that news, are we to harshly punish women who try to abort the fetus with their own hands Ė by jumping from a high place or using harsh chemicals Ė or who employ some barely trained butcher to crudely abort the fetus? Perhaps go after the crude butcher, but is the woman to be criminalized for doing damage to her own body? The fetus is not yet a human, not w/o full participation from the mother and Iím not sure we have the right, or the ability, to force such participation. Is it that surprising that parents would care more for their adult daughter, on whom they have lavished much love and care than they would for a fetus either doomed to early death or fathered by some scum-bag such that that they would wish to employ the services of someone who knows how to perform a safe abortion?

If I had a daughter who had been impregnated by some Svengali pimp like character who promptly abandoned her, and who came home in her third trimester barely alive after some suicide attempt, I think I might be in favor of a late term abortion. Bill OíReilly will howl that this is aborting a child, late term, just because the mother is depressed. Never mind that the vast majority of late term abortions are performed because the motherís life is in danger or because the fetus has deformities so severe that it will likely not live long past birth, OíReilly and other chest-thumping pro-lifers insist they know the whies and wherefores of these things, end of story.

No, the Bill OíReillys and the angry, bitter Elmer Fudd looking character who shot Dr. Tiller in his church will howl that aborting such a fetus is reprehensible murder and that doctors who do so are worthy of being shot.

Got to have those equal outcomes, doncha know.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:17 AM
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Very well stated.

I will put myself technically in the anti-abortion camp, not militant though.

BUT, I say technically because while I would prefer they not occur, freedom of choice by the woman, heavily overrides any position on abortion I may have.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by kknudson View Post
Very well stated.

I will put myself technically in the anti-abortion camp, not militant though.

BUT, I say technically because while I would prefer they not occur, freedom of choice by the woman, heavily overrides any position on abortion I may have.
That's my general take. The thought of it is pretty distasteful to me but the notion that the state could or should require that a woman do with her body as the state insists is a bit weird.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by kknudson View Post
Very well stated.

BUT, I say technically because while I would prefer they not occur, freedom of choice by the woman, heavily overrides any position on abortion I may have.
X2 to a degree, but I believe the father should have some say on the abortion. It's also his child that's being terminated. He certainly gets hammered with child support when the mother decides against abortion. Shouldn't he be entitled to some say when the coin is flipped the other way around? Never hear about that scenerio, but I bet it happens everyday.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 450slcguy View Post
X2 to a degree, but I believe the father should have some say on the abortion. It's also his child that's being terminated. He certainly gets hammered with child support when the mother decides against abortion. Shouldn't he be entitled to some say when the coin is flipped the other way around? Never hear about that scenerio, but I bet it happens everyday.
Yes, the choice of the "parents" would be correct, and what I really meant.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:20 AM
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As far as I know, the father has no legal voice in the abortion decision.
I've never hear any dicussion on the issue.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by 450slcguy View Post
As far as I know, the father has no legal voice in the abortion decision.
I've never hear any dicussion on the issue.
That is an issue for another thread, lets just keep it for now that the "parents" should have the right to make the decision.
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  #8  
Old 08-19-2009, 06:40 AM
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I believe it is a decision which should be up to the mother, father (unless he is a scumbag or rapist), her clergy and her physician.

For normal people using the abortion option does not seem like a very good choice to me.

But it should be a choice ...not denied by some politicians posturing for the conservative christian vote.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:01 AM
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I am not against abortion at all. It is not my decision what a woman does. I am against the state funding them as it is no business of the state or of the people to be involved in a totally private matter.

What I am trying to say is that it is nobody's business but the people directly involved.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:20 AM
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As a christian I don't believe in abortion. But I believe it's a personal choice and noone has the right to make that choice for someone else.
At times my wife works in the neonatal unit at the hospital and she see's baby's abandoned by their parents all the time. They become wards of the state. Usually for the rest of their lives. It's not a pretty picture to contemplate.
However I don't think it's OK to terminate pregnancy's on the basis of mental or physical condition at the time of birth. I don't think therer are many people who can be unselfish and see the whole picture to make such a decision.

On the other hand, I do think that women who get pregnant and can't afford to have children. I mean women who have children and bring them up on welfare. I believe they should be put on some kind of birth control after the first time. Whether by pill or operation, doesn't matter. They should only get one free bee.

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Old 08-19-2009, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels View Post
What I am trying to say is that it is nobody's business but the people directly involved.
That's my stance. I don't like abortion, but I also don't think the gov't has a right to tell a person what they can/can't do. For me, the woman's situation and her individual rights takes precedence over the government's situation and societal rights.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by 450slcguy View Post
As far as I know, the father has no legal voice in the abortion decision.
I've never hear any dicussion on the issue.
Why should they? A man can leave at anytime while the woman is making a decision that would impact her destiny for the next eighteen years. At the heart of the American ideal is the concept that we all are free to choose our own destiny as long as we obey the law. What right does anyone have to make that choice for another? For the woman, it is a choice to endure the drudgery of motherhood. For the man, it's just another bill to pay if he so chooses.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:34 AM
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Wow.
A thread on a rather touchy personal, political as well as religeous issue.
A thread that even has the word ďrighiesĒ in the first sentence.

The fact that itís actually made it through 12 posts of mature, well stated personal views on the issue without jumping right into senseless bickering is somewhat astounding.

Iím proud of you guys.



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Old 08-19-2009, 11:01 AM
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Assuming there are only two people involved (mother/father) the woman has to be the only decision maker. If the decision is a 50/50 split, the father can essentially block what ever the woman wants for what ever reason. If the woman is given 50%+1 then there is no reason for the father to have an opinion as the mother decision is final. For the record, I believe it must be the woman say that counts. The person who caries the embryo for 9 months, and gives birth has the say, when the guys can figure out how to do that, they can have the say as well.

As for the financial aspect that LUVMBDiesels brought up (who pays). Sure it would be nice for the state/fed not to pay for it but I see a few problems with that. Firstly it will limit access to abortions to those with money. Secondly, I'll assume that you do not want any prenatal care or post natal care paid for by public funds either as it is not my kid so why should I pay? The kid can suffer with the parents right? As one of those lefty liberals there are quite a few things that I would rather not pay for but I see they are a necessary evil so I deal with it. The cost of the abortion will be far less a burden on society than the cost of raising a child who will be passed around in the orphanage and an increased likely hood that the child grows up to be an adult who is a drain on society as well which will cost more than the abortion would have. Since this is only about the money, lets save some.
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  #15  
Old 08-19-2009, 12:41 PM
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Most here consider me a "rightie" I would think. I am adopted. I think a parent should be able to have control over her body, and that includes abortion. Jolly Rodger- you do understand that a male may be forced to pay child support even if he never gets to see the child? Your view that only the woman gets a say is sticking your head in the sand.
I know of "lefties" that also disagree with me on this one.
I'd much rather see kids whose parents can afford to raise the children with love and support (and that includes monetary support from the parents- not from free food stamps) than see a family with 8 kids, two caddies in the driveway and the parents looking for the next free gov cheese handout.

Think I'm joking? Three families on my old block had over 6 kids and mom and dad did not work.
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