Originally Posted by PaulC

Another happy ending.

Originally Posted by John Doe

Its not easy, actually. Subcontract employees present all sorts of complexities, respondeat superior comes to mind as a glaring one: You send a contract employee out to a jobsite and he blows up your server through negligence, but in the normal course and scope of his duties. You call your liability carrier. They tell you to get laid, because subs aren't covered. They are supposed to carry their own liability coverage to meet that definition of "subcontractor." Your contract employee says, "hey man, you ain't paying me enough to carry a bond and my own liability insurance, so get laid."

And in reality, you would have never gotten the bid for the job anyway, because nobody would hire a farmed out subcontractor that has no liability coverage.

Originally Posted by John Doe

...I was getting ready for work and listening to cnn in the background. Apparently they just had a big cancer summit in Ireland over the past few days. cnn's Dr. Sanjay Gupta was there and corralled the Public Health Minister for Ireland over in to the corner for an interview. Apparently Ireland was a European holdout, and just went through the "reform" of their healthcare a few years back and went with 'healthcare for all.'

The Irish fellow didn't even try to defend his own system. I waited for him to say, "We're still working the kinks out....", but I didn't hear it.

Off the top of my head, I recall that the Irish guy said they spent 40% of their collected tax revenue in 2008 on public healthcare, to the detriment of many other services. This part is fuzzy, but I also believe he said in the order of 2/3 of the Country still paid for some partial or full insurance, because the public system sucks.

The hip replacement waiting time, for instance was months, ect......

The healthcare thing isn't going to affect me directly in the slightest, unless my taxes go up to fund the program, but I recommend trying to find a transcript of Dr. Gupta's interview of Ireland's Health Minister to you rich guys left over from the 60's who are staring knee & hip replacements and bypasses in the face.

Off to work. All the protesting I can afford today.

Originally Posted by John Doe

.... but if I'm going to pay for it, I want to be able to choose.

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Well since we are paying a ton by default now with the ER, and paying for illegals to boot. Their has to be a better way.

I just have zero faith in the government being able to do anything well.

Originally Posted by tankdriver

Is it studying a historical model, or is it watching one interview about one country's system as seen through the eyes of one official?
It is always good to study as many systems as you can, and instead of choosing one, try and discover a way to mitigate the downsides of others.

As far as I know, no one here is proposing not being able to choose your own doctor. Except current insurance companies, who can and sometimes do hand you a list of acceptable doctors.

Originally Posted by tonkovich

1. sanjay gupta is a shill for the drug companies and health insurance industries. do your homework

2. anecdotal evidence is wonderful; it's just anecdotal though. god forbid we actually know the facts.

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Do we really need yet another health care thread where more knowledgeable people have to debunk myths like these? It's getting quite tiring. Please point out where in the health reform bill it says you will not be able to choose your doctor or which country with a public health plan has that kind of restriction. I do know that with my private insurance here in the US I'm limited to a small, local network of doctors unless I want to pay mostly out of my own pocket. From what I know in the other countries with "socialized" medicine, there are no such limited networks. If you really want to choose your own doctor, you should want a public health insurance option that's accepted nationwide. I know I do.

Originally Posted by JollyRoger

Well let's see, it seems the US spends around $5200 per capita on health care, while Ireland is about $3000, and we spend 15%+ GDP on health care, while they spend 8%+ of their GDP.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Content/Publications/In-the-Literature/2006/May/Health-Care-Spending-and-Use-of-Information-Technology-in-OECD-Countries.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

The wiki cites a survey, which is linked, showing that 90% of the population is satisfied with their healthcare system.

Originally Posted by John Doe

Have you ever met a doctor, or been in business with them, done their business for them, sued them, ect....? Better yet, have you ever heard of an HMO?

You have crappy insurance.

I get to chose my doctor, my kids doctors, and my wife's doctor, no matter where they are or what they cost and insurance picks up the tab. When my father had cancer, he got to go to MD Anderson in Houston, and his insurance picked up everything but the airfare and he lives in NC. I myself was treated for flesh eating bacteria contracted out of the Gulf of Mexico by a Duke Med school infectious disease specialist that I had heard of. Again, minus the plane ticket and the $25 copay, which all our family doctors waive out of professional courtesy.

Myth my ass--you guys need to get out in the world beyond your links and see how things work in person.

Originally Posted by John Doe

Every discussion I have heard on the matter leads me to believe there is credibility to the suggestion that you won't be able to choose your own doctor.

Originally Posted by MBlovr

Well it's good to know that when you are older that you will be refusing Medicare.

Originally Posted by John Doe

Have you ever met a doctor, or been in business with them, done their business for them, sued them, etc....? Better yet, have you ever heard of an HMO?

You have crappy insurance.

I get to chose my doctor, my kids doctors, and my wife's doctor, no matter where they are or what they cost and insurance picks up the tab. When my father had cancer, he got to go to MD Anderson in Houston, and his insurance picked up everything but the airfare and he lives in NC. I myself was treated for flesh eating bacteria contracted out of the Gulf of Mexico by a Duke Med school infectious disease specialist that I had heard of. Again, minus the plane ticket and the $25 copay, which all our family doctors waive out of professional courtesy.

Myth my ass--you guys need to get out in the world beyond your links and see how things work in person.

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

I believe that's just your own paranoid mind or maybe Fox News talking heads telling you that. I've seen ZERO evidence suggesting you won't be able to choose your own doctor. Please provide such evidence if it exists as I'd really like to see it, or stop spreading such misinformation.

Originally Posted by cmac2012

For people at a certain level of prosperity and above, our current health insurance system operates fairly painlessly. The fact that it consumes around 18% of total monies devoted to it in admin. fees is not noticed. But the need to assure profit for shareholders results in all sorts of inefficient practices. Lower income people are denied timely care that might nip various problems in the bud. And then, when in desperate straits, they show up at ERs where our culture feels more or less duty bound to serve them to some degree. And if they weren't served, various other problems would manifest, such as diseased people dying on the streets. Not too good for business.

I've said it before, we have a health care system one of whose primary aims is avoiding sick people. This business of collecting premiums and then denying care based on some arcane triviality is just a bit repugnant. This while various HMO execs amass 9 figure fortunes.

Some Rr pol recently said that po' folk can just go to an ER and get help. Oh boy, he misses the point, which is, we have socialized medicine from hell right now -- costly and not real effective.