I have to say that while taxes are a little higher in the UK when you add up taxes and national insurance. It worked out to about 30% difference between my gross and net pay and there is a national health system.

Here in Texas, even though we don't have a state income tax, my tax deductions combined with social security, dental, vision and medical/proscription is closer to 40% of my gross salary. This is for a single, non smoker in his 30's.

In the UK, there is no co-pay, no deductibles and they cover everything. My insurance company does not even cover some basic procedures and i find myself on the phone arguing with them on the rare occasion that I use the service.

That's not to say that the US solution has to be the same the UK solution, I could argue as easily that for what we're getting, we may be already over taxed. But if you're paying 3 times more for medicine in the US then you do if you cross either border, then you're paying too much and certainly that needs to be looked at.

I'm not an economist and i'm basing this purely on my take home pay experience from working in the two countries. But it's hard for me to understand people who are against looking at the problem. To me, this issue is not too dissimilar to the high gas prices problem that we experienced a couple of years ago.

The fact is that is that health care costs can rise to a pretty high number before the people who currently buy insurance will stop buying it. In the end, if you feel that you need it, you will sacrifice something else in order to buy it. Just as it was when gas prices shot through the roof, everybody was bleeding but they kept buying because they had to get to work and oil companies recorded record profits.

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With best regards

Al

The part of this argument that is not brought to the forefront is the absolute staggering cost of uninsured on our economy. The missed days at work, the needless emergency room and hospital visits that are not payed for, the cost of treating diseases and conditions that could have been prevented, the fact that the US ranks about 40 th. in infant mortality and about 50 th. in life expectancy primarily because of lack of medical care. Look at the cost of treating diabetes and its ramifications on society. Diabetes is a relatively easy condition to prevent if those prone to it could get early diagnosis and treatment.

The money wasted in Iraq and Afghanistan could easily have paid for universal medical and not produces the dead and wounded that the war has.

If the care was cheaper in the first place, then the need for insurance would be less. Say a doctor visit costs $100. Why? What can we do to 1. allow, and 2. encourage the health care provider to charge $50 and still make a good living?

On point 1: I know tort reform would help, but I don't know how much. I'm not in the health care industry, but I'm willing to bet that there are regulations and practices in place that increase cost without an accompanying benefit to the patient. This needs to be pursued.

Point 2: With the exception of some outfits who specialize in elective procedures, I haven't seen any advertising espousing affordability of this or that provider. This tells me that health care consumers have not been adequately incentivized to comparison shop and push prices down by selecting the lower cost providers.

Random idea relating to both points: In the Navy we have these people called IDCs, or Independent Duty Corpsmen. They can't do everything a doctor can, but they can solve a very large percentage of medical problems indepenently. They have quite a bit of training and experience, and are well compensated, but they are still a lot cheaper to make (train) and keep (pay) than a full-blown doctor. I think there is something similar in the civilian world, but I think they are probably underutilized.

My uninformed $0.02.

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Whoever said there's nothing more expensive than a cheap Mercedes never had a cheap Jaguar.

83 300D Turbo with manual conversion, early W126 vented front rotors and H4 headlights 400,xxx miles
08 Suzuki GSX-R600 M4 Slip-on 22,xxx miles
88 Jaguar XJS V12 94,xxx miles. Work in progress.

I have read that all lawsuit payouts count for less than 1% of health care costs, but I have no online source for that.

I mentioned a talk Howard Dean gave on health care in another thread. One of the things he said was that there are qualified RNPs that can do many of the jobs that he did as a resident. He said that hospitalization is really where the bulk of outrageous medical spending lives. And he also said that in a public option, primary care doctors would actually earn more, as hospitalization costs were drawn down.

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1984 300TD

Tort reform is a red herring sponsored mainly, but obviously in a round about way, by the health industry. As mentioned tort litigation accounts for a very small percentage of the industries costs. But, while consumers are focusing on a few multi million dollar cases, the health industry is slowly, and with large doses of Novocain, putting it to the consumer.

The thing that many people do not realize is that in these multi-bizillon dollar cases; one, the lawyers get the majority of the money, two, the cases are rarely settled for anything more than a few percent of the original award, and thirdly, the plaintiff basically gets zip.

The Ford Pinto case started in Robstown, Tx. about 40 miles from here. The original award was, I believe, about $150 million. The accident happened in the late '80's or so. The settlement came through last year. It was for about $3 million, and the lawyers got all of it. So, anyone that talks about the dire need for tort reform is being snowed by the industry.

Keith Olberman had an excellent explanation of who is behind these 'spontaneous' outcries at the town hall discussions of the medical bill. Most are sponsored by some type of 'action' committee. Most of these committees have indirect, but very traceable ties to the health care industry.

In the end it is all politics.

I don't like where this reform is starting to go. The public option looks about dead and now they're talking about mandatory insurance for everyone with big fines if you don't purchase insurance, i.e. the private insurance lobby has scored a huge win in this fight and completely ravaged what was once good health reform. Can I change my vote to "no"?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090908/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_health_care_overhaul

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

The questions that are not being asked and answered is how do other countries with a national health system make it work? How and why do they know how to make this system work and the US can't figure it out? How much does the LACK of health insurance cost this country as opposed to what it would cost to have the insurance? Why are we spending billions on a war and creating a huge pool of injured solders that are going to require long term treatment when we can't even take care of the sick that we already have? Presently 25% of the homeless are Vietnam vets. What is going to happen in the next 20 years to the current solders? Why are we creating a problem like this that doesn't need to be created?

As to other countries' health systems, we already discussed that:
5 myths about other countries' health care

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

No two health care systems are the same in the world but there are several very significant similarities.
1. Everyone is in (covered) therefore a larger pool.
2. Single payer system, the gov. collects and then pays
3. Cost are controlled, the payer sets prices therefore cost are lower.
4. No profit for the insurance companies, the only developed nation without insurance companies is Britain.

None of these other national health care systems are perfect.
But:
People do not die for lack of coverage
People do not go bankrupted for lack of enough coverage.
People are not dropped by insurance companies.
People are not denied coverage from insurance companies.
People have better health outcomes.

The United States of America may have the best health care but it does have the worst health care system among developed nations.
I saw our country put a man on the moon 30 years ago so don't tell me that greatest nation on earth cannot provide basic health coverage for every citizen. I expect more form a nation which did that.

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Britton McIntyre

68 280 SE coupe 'Hairball'
70 280 SL
71 280 SEL - RIP May 2010

For the cost of invading other countries and giving deficit-financed tax cuts to the wealthy, we could have had a single-payer system by now, assuming there's political will for that which there is not.

I read Obama's speech today that he gave last night. I thought it was a pretty good speech. Clear to the point. I'm still disappointed that he wants the public option to be available only to the currently uninsured to essentially avoid pressuring the private insurance industry too much, but I guess it's a start and there are some other good reforms being proposed even for those currently on private insurance. So I guess I'll stick with my "yes" vote after all.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Most Americans think that this country has the best medical system in the world. My family and I lived overseas for 20 years and I can tell you that the US does NOT have the best system in the world. Any system excludes 45 + million of it's countrymen from participating in the system does not have the best system in the world.

We do have very good, perhaps the best, high end, high tech system but this is only used by less than one percent of the population. Granted many people, mostly the very rich, come from overseas to have wonders worked on them, but as far as your average American man in the street having access to this kind of technology it is just not going to happen on a regular basis.

This is the dichotomy of our system: we have some of the best medical technology in the world which ought to put our life expectancy among the top, but because of our universal access to this technology, esp. pre and post natal, we rank 50th. in the world. We have some of the best universities in the world but our graduating high school seniors rank about 20th. in world.

I am sure that we could put a man/woman on Mars for what universal health care could save this country in unnecessary health related expenses.

That makes two of us. Buisness owner myself. (Resturant, hair/tanning salon, imports of artificial flowers). I have to pay a 15% share also. It reminds me of the interview on CNN where the guy tried to make the statement before the lady cut him out. The man said "I want a Hummer, I can not afford one so I do not buy one" End of story. Cant afford health care? Then get on a plan that you can afford but do not make other people pay for you. That is my view on it. And also considering that we are both self employed(My wife and I) I dont think it is fare that the we should be getting taxed to death considering the only damn jobs in the country anymore are independant buisness owners.......Oh and then there is the Gov. and state jobs.

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2015 ML350 4Matic. Wifes DD
2015 GLK350 4Matic. My winter DD
2012 E350 4Matic. Road Trip car
2009 CLK350 Coupe Designo.Kleemann Tune For nice days/DD
2006 CL600. V12.Eurocharged Tune. Enough said
2005 CLK55 AMG Coupe.Kleemann Tune. For the sound and style
2004 CLK320 Cabriolet. 2005+ Interior swap. For the sunny Florida days & beach days

So to you being able to buy a Hummer is the same kind of privilege as being able to see a doctor when sick. That's some whacked thinking.

My job is none of those.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

No no no. That was just the point that the guy was making. What he ment by that was If you cant afford it then do not buy it was his argument. It was on the CNN back in august.

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2015 ML350 4Matic. Wifes DD
2015 GLK350 4Matic. My winter DD
2012 E350 4Matic. Road Trip car
2009 CLK350 Coupe Designo.Kleemann Tune For nice days/DD
2006 CL600. V12.Eurocharged Tune. Enough said
2005 CLK55 AMG Coupe.Kleemann Tune. For the sound and style
2004 CLK320 Cabriolet. 2005+ Interior swap. For the sunny Florida days & beach days

You quoted him and then said "That is my view on it." So are you saying you disagree with that view? It sure sounded like you agreed with it.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL