this little tidbit bears repeating.


yes, the poor victimized adolf. i cry for into my pillow for him every night

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

You are right. I was way off on the numbers. Perhaps I was remembering how many were engaged in just one battle from memory. According to Wiki, the russians had 480 divisions raised to fight ww2 and "hundreds " which had been in existence prior to ww2. (granted, a russian division was smaller than ours)

The bottom line is we had no business fighting them then (or anytime really) because of their massive army and massive land area.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Here's are some more tidbits for you: the American imperialism that so many of you decry began with the two European wars, especially WWII. The Holocaust, that even leftists use as justification for fighting the Germans, would never have happened had the war been avoided or an early peace settlement negotiated. In September of 1939, two hostile powers crossed the borders of Poland, but only one was sanctioned by war, Germany. The other became our ally. At Yalta in 1945, the Western Powers agreed to the installation of a communist government in Poland, allowing Stalin to keep the territory that had been denied to Hitler at the cost of 50 million lives.

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1983 300D

Incorrect. It began long before then. And I for one, do not necessarily decry it.

That is impossible to know. But given Hitlers weltanschaung, I find it doubtful in the long run.

That is true. The moral cowardice of the western democracies in the face of Soviet Totalitarianism is very real, even if it's not something that people in the west feel comforable acknowledging. Norman Davies wrote and excellent book on this subject wihich goes at great lenght into the irony's of the time as principal took second place to reality.

WWII (in europe) was largely the clash of two criminal regimes, two ganster states fighting each other to the death. The western democracies calculated at the time of the spanish civil war that fascism was the greater immediate threat to human civilization than communism and so when the two evil "ism's" clashed a few years later they made the choice to ally themselves with what they felt to be the lesser of two evils, for the simple reason that, as I've said before, they knew they had no chance to defeat the greater of the two absent the assistence of the lesser.

- Peter.

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America's imperialism has waxed and waned throughout its history. See Spanish American War, 1898.

Bulls***. The Holocaust was a result of Hitler's intentions, not a reaction to allied war declaration. Hitler intended to kill Jews and he did it. As for an early peace agreement, ask the Russians how well that worked out. They had an agreement with Hitler. It appears Hitler was not an idiot. He tried to face his enemies one by one, not all at the same time. Luckily for us, he didn't get his way.

The other became our ally. Eventually. But at first the USSR was considered part of the axis powers. And the USSR was smart enough to wait to invade Poland until after Germany had triggered France and UK's declaration of war. Thus, having one enemy already, the allies were reluctant to add another.

And the alternative? The Soviets opening a second front in the Pacific, and warring with the Allies in central europe. Tough one.

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1984 300TD

Is Buchanan trying to claim that the attempted extermination of European Jewry would not have happened if the allies had just left him alone?

If Hitler really wanted to avoid war, he could have continued with his agreement with Stalin to purchase resources instead of declaring war (ruinous war, as it turned out) on him.

**EDIT** Oops - tankdriver made the same points in the post immediately preceding this one. Buchanan makes the error of assuming that Hitler was rational.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
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The Russians lost about 20 million, soldiers and civilians, in both WWs 1 and 2. There is no significant natural barrier between Moscow and Germany. Given those losses to German aggression across eastern Europe, there is no way Russia was not going to exert serious control over the landbridge between them and Germany, after having emerged victorious.

75% (APPROXIMATELY) of all battle in the European theater were Russian-German exclusively. The Russians dealt Germany their first serious defeat in WW2 at Stalingrad. Russia was going to have its due, no matter how unpleasant it seeded to others.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
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The Nazis, directly after their election to power 1933, instituted ant-Semetic laws. Krystalnacht occured in Nov 1938, almost a year before the invasion of Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

That's actually a pretty well known fact. Allied propaganda was mostly responsible for the "Hitler wanted to conqueror the world" myth. Hitler's aim was to form the Aryan Nation, which he considered to be England, Ireland, Scotland, Iceland, France, the Nordic countries, and as the war went on he threw in Ukraine and Croatia into the old Aryan Melting Pot as well, since they mostly hated Jews as much as he did. This Aryan Nation would subjugate the undar-menschen, who would either be used as slaves or exterminated, in the lands Hitler called the Oster Reich, the eastern lands inconveinently inhabited by Russians, Poles, etc. Hitler saw the world as a Darwinian struggle between races, some races who were not Aryans were ok as long as they were "pure", like the xenophobic Japanese, and the conveniently located fellow fascists in Italy and Spain, whom he called "The Latin Races" - but if truth be told, in the end, they would have to get turned into soap and lampshades sooner or later as well. For the most part, it was muddled, mixed up intellectual mush and rubbish.

The aim was to set up industrialized death camps where ever the Wehrmacht was victorious, and then replace the current inhabitants with nice, non-threatening white people of Nordic descent who would always keep a supply of slaves handy for the dirty work, in other words not much different from the type of government the Confederates wanted to set up in the American West and South, just substitute Indians for Jews and Russians for slaves, so it is easy to see why he always had a friendly base of support in this country. Hitler knew he was just going to get the ball rolling in Russia, and that his Perpetual War successors would carry on until the planet was all nice and white. Old Pat is just sore he didn't get the easy chair on the plantation porch, that's all.

If one reads Albert Speer and a few others, Hitler would have been much happier if the English and French just stayed out of it, as Hitler felt he was doing them a favor by eliminating the commies and the Jews, and he felt they should be more appreciative. He actually had a lot of support from politicians in England and the US before supporting Hitler became unfashionable, in America both Joe Kennedy and Prescott Bush on both ends of the political spectrum, and Charles Lindburg and a few other notables openly supported Hitler based on the "buttress against Communism" idea.

Hitler did see the total conquest of the world as an eventuality, something to keep that ole Thousand Year Reich busy for a few centuries, until the entire world was essentially ethnically cleansed. Ah, American racists sigh, what could have been.....

pat buchanan is a catholic lunatic. everything he says follows from that craziness. and remember that the vatican was quite friendly to the fascists - for those keeping score at home, that includes spain, germany and italy. which is fine if you are a catholic (i guess). pity those who were non believers, jews, liberals, gypsies, non-aryans, etc.

by the way, this is revisionist propaganda being spouted on this forum, and don't think anyone doesn't see it for what it is.

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

I really don't buy the "He invaded Austria. He invaded Czechoslovakia.", both countries had huge idealogical and emotional bases of support for the Nazis. I'd call them more coup's then invasions. In fact, if he had handled his Polish problem the same way he did CZ, by gobbling Danzig and former German provinces in Poland up a chunk at a time instead of making a total wreck of the place - he should have stuck with claiming to be the hero come to save the poor Germans who were being oppressed by the nasty Versaille Treaty - which BTW he wanted to do in order to acquire more soldiers and the farmland to feed them, he might have avoided the big war for the 5 years he needed to perfect a ballistic rocket and an atom bomb. I shudder to think of a world where Adolf Hitler had nuclear weapons and V2 rockets. Von Braun eventually put a man on the moon, it is easy to see he could have engineered a rocket to hit New York by 1952 or so. It is amazing how close we came.

The discrimination and property crimes committed against the Jews, with the ultimate goal of removing the majority of Jews from German territory (by emigration or deportation) was Hitler's intention before the war.

The outright murder of Jews took place in the context of the larger war, and increased in scale as the war turned against Hitler and his chances of victory.

The Nazis showed a willingness to negotiate for the freedom of Jews, even as late as 1944 when Himmler offered the Allies one million Hungarian Jews in exchange for 10,000 trucks and other provisions. The Allies and the Jewish Agency refused to negotiate with the SS and the Jews were put on trains for the camps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H The Nazis, directly after their election to power 1933, instituted ant-Semetic laws. Krystalnacht occured in Nov 1938, almost a year before the invasion of Poland.

I'm talking about saving Jewish lives, if that was a priority for the Western powers.

Nobody is denying that Jews faced persecution before the war, though they were also free to leave if they had the means and country that would take them.

After the war began, things became more difficult. Had the Allies been interested in a negotiated peace, humane treatment and safe transport of Jews under the control of the Nazis could have been made a condition. Instead, the Allies insisted on unconditional surrender, which only prolonged the war and increased the death tolls and the suffering.

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1983 300D

Rubbish. Hitler always intended to exterminate the Jews, from his earliest days on. Please don't insult the memory of those who died in the Holocaust by presenting Himmler as some sort of mis-understood humanitarian, you are making me barf.

[img]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_XS3Xra0Xs[/img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Brand

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1983 300D

Sadly, but I can't help but think that if we had been more on the ball at the time we may have negotiated a better deal.

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