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  #31  
Old 12-26-2009, 11:01 AM
Craig
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Originally Posted by okyoureabeast View Post
Just wait when fuel costs sky rocket again. That will bring all of those jobs back to the US when shipping becomes astronomically expensive.

It happened back in 2008 and it will happen again.
Nope, manufacturing in the U.S. has been on a steady decline for 40 years, that was a very small blip in a very large trend. The cast of "fuel" is just a small part of the cost of energy, manufacturing is energy intensive. The cost of shipping will not off-set the difference in labor costs.

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  #32  
Old 12-26-2009, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
Don't ever ever ever buy spring compressors made in communist China.

They could let go and kill you -- literally...


Stick with Klann...even at their higher cost.
Is this like " stick with Bosch-brand filters (even if they are made out of cheap cotton in India)"?

I gree Klann is one of the best, but I'm not giving blind loyalty to any brand, because as soon as the greedy finance weenies control the company and it's maximum vs optimum profit at any cost, only the customer loses.

The customer starts to get consumer-grade steel instead of samurai-grade steel.
That's my concern.
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  #33  
Old 12-28-2009, 03:04 AM
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Unless something changes in a major fashion I project some of us will own Chinese cars in the not too distant future. China is coming on at least twice as fast as Japan did.

The problem I am thinking about is the potential destruction of wealth already underway in north america as a direct result of too much offshore merchandise. It is already almost a tidal wave.

In otherwords will we still be able to afford their products and have a simular standard of living then? Will our children and grandchildren?

This approach of buying consumable disposable offshore goods in massive quantities has to have a downside besides just job losses. The time framework is probably more in doubt than the occurance of it. It is already having a major effect I think.

Taken to extremes will we become a cheap labour source for the Chinese at some point? The international courts will demand we pay back our current and growing debt to them someday somehow. I do not think countries are really allowed to default under international law. They can technically go bankrupt but any assets they posess are seizable. It is true they need us as a market as long as we can afford to pay.

I almost see myself as being alone on this issue. I see no plan in effect to avoid it. It may become the single most important issue for north america in the current century.

I believe the American government blocked the sale of a major north american company to them reciently. They may find that in hindsite it was a very foolish thing to do.

The next time the American government wants the Chinese to assume the laibility on a large sum of new treasury bonds. The price may be exhorbitant in some fashion. Or the bonds not taken at all.

I suspect the government borrows new funds continiously to cover the outstanding due bond interest before delinquency time. Combine that with what the financial community of north america has enabled presents a complex picture.

If China were to stop assuming the debt we might have a nasty situation develop very fast. At some point they will have to. Todays financial behaviour at the government level is not finite. I suspect the presidents trip over a little while ago partially concerned this. They did issue a request remember to show some financial responsibility when he was elected after all.

As north americans we already cannot afford to buy a Chinese built volvo product for example regardless of how good or cheap it may be.
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  #34  
Old 12-28-2009, 04:01 AM
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I agree it's a serious issue. The only way out of it IMO is to reduce our consumption and become more efficient and quickly. People are going to go for a good price/quality quotient and the Chinese are kicking our behinds in that category. Part of their low prices has to come from their more lax viro standards but the bulk of it stems from the inescapable fact that the average Chinese worker consumes much less wealth than the average American worker and thus requires less pay.
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  #35  
Old 12-28-2009, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
I agree it's a serious issue. The only way out of it IMO is to reduce our consumption and become more efficient and quickly. People are going to go for a good price/quality quotient and the Chinese are kicking our behinds in that category. Part of their low prices has to come from their more lax viro standards but the bulk of it stems from the inescapable fact that the average Chinese worker consumes much less wealth than the average American worker and thus requires less pay.
How efficient can you be and still beat the Chinese worker? A better question is how low are you willing to go? You willing to work for $5 a day? If not, how efficient can you be to beat that? A Vietnamese cop makes $350 a month. Tell me how efficient are you that you can beat that. Of course, bribes are the order of the day, week, month and year but how crooked a cop are you willing to tolerate? What about you? How much work are you willing to do for a few bucks a day? They are hungry and willing to work. Our people here have a sense of entitlement and think the world owes them a living. Totally different story.

Here is the problem. I used to have a US company bag the animal feed I export. Now, it is cheaper for me to send it to Nam in a 40 foot container and have someone there shovel it out and into 25Kg bags. The US company wants $51 a ton and it is machine done. The Nam company wants way less than that to do it BY HAND ($20, IIRC). How efficient can you be to compete with that? Efficiency only goes so far. After that, you might as well be pushing a rope. Why? I'd rather pull a rope than push one.

You have to realize that labor is DEAD. No ifs, ands or buts. It is people like you who seem to be suggesting to the grocer that he should try be more efficient and go toe to toe with Wal*Mart. In a 1 in a million case, maybe it can work. Even the Chinese are going to have to give way to the African continent when it comes to cheap labor someday. Why do we want to hang on with trying to resuscitate labor? The answer is very simple, IMO. By going to new and technical areas that they are not yet so caught up, it will leave many people in the "have not" category. As such, we try to keep labor alive for these people. Will it work? In the short run, maybe. In the long run, probably not. Name of the game is adapt or die. It is that simple.
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Last edited by aklim; 12-28-2009 at 06:34 PM.
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  #36  
Old 12-29-2009, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
How efficient can you be and still beat the Chinese worker? A better question is how low are you willing to go? You willing to work for $5 a day? If not, how efficient can you be to beat that? A Vietnamese cop makes $350 a month. Tell me how efficient are you that you can beat that. Of course, bribes are the order of the day, week, month and year but how crooked a cop are you willing to tolerate? What about you? How much work are you willing to do for a few bucks a day? They are hungry and willing to work. Our people here have a sense of entitlement and think the world owes them a living. Totally different story.

Here is the problem. I used to have a US company bag the animal feed I export. Now, it is cheaper for me to send it to Nam in a 40 foot container and have someone there shovel it out and into 25Kg bags. The US company wants $51 a ton and it is machine done. The Nam company wants way less than that to do it BY HAND ($20, IIRC). How efficient can you be to compete with that? Efficiency only goes so far. After that, you might as well be pushing a rope. Why? I'd rather pull a rope than push one.

You have to realize that labor is DEAD. No ifs, ands or buts. It is people like you who seem to be suggesting to the grocer that he should try be more efficient and go toe to toe with Wal*Mart. In a 1 in a million case, maybe it can work. Even the Chinese are going to have to give way to the African continent when it comes to cheap labor someday. Why do we want to hang on with trying to resuscitate labor? The answer is very simple, IMO. By going to new and technical areas that they are not yet so caught up, it will leave many people in the "have not" category. As such, we try to keep labor alive for these people. Will it work? In the short run, maybe. In the long run, probably not. Name of the game is adapt or die. It is that simple.
You have a valid point. I have been adapting to what is for almost a year now. Unfortunatly it increases the overall damage to the economy to do so. I just see no other real option at the moment.

Since I am officially retired I had kind of semi laid back until the wife asked if I could teach my youngest son in law how to earn money. Initially I thought the challenge may be interesting in this economy so I went for it.

The results are not what was hoped for. The son in law is a charter member of the entitlement generation it seems. So is not growing or participating well even with the project getting well off the ground

This entitlement thing a lot of his generation seems to have is very hard or almost impossible to get out of the way in my opinion. I have really tried.

I have also felt for years that much of the world has in one way or another substitized wages in north america. Now that that period in history where we lived well because other people where economically controlled, underdeveloped, or uncapitalized seems to be ending. I dare not say exploited.

So far I see no real attempt by us to adjust to the new realities. Hoping for the best will not work. We have a real leadership vaccum if all they can do is attempt to react after the fact. It may be impossible the way our system is to get the issue on the table politically..

.
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  #37  
Old 12-29-2009, 10:52 AM
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I saw a report of an audit done by Disney at one of their factories in China.
The average income was about 1,000,000 yuan/renminbi - about $150.00 per month. Compete with that.
The report had found problems in many areas, violations of the existing labor code, of course none not serious enough to close down the factory.
I was in Beijing last December, a bottle of beer in a store cost 2.5 yuan about $0.35.
In a restaurant the tourist price was 30 yuan - about $4.00 for the same beer.
I used today's exchange rate, I am not sure what the rate was a year ago.
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  #38  
Old 12-29-2009, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
You have a valid point. I have been adapting to what is for almost a year now. Unfortunatly it increases the overall damage to the economy to do so. I just see no other real option at the moment.

This entitlement thing a lot of his generation seems to have is very hard or almost impossible to get out of the way in my opinion. I have really tried.

I have also felt for years that much of the world has in one way or another substitized wages in north america. Now that that period in history where we lived well because other people where economically controlled, underdeveloped, or uncapitalized seems to be ending. I dare not say exploited.

So far I see no real attempt by us to adjust to the new realities. Hoping for the best will not work. We have a real leadership vaccum if all they can do is attempt to react after the fact. It may be impossible the way our system is to get the issue on the table politically...
Adapt or die is not just a slogan. It is the law of the world. As I have said before, just because we are stupid and think that the world owes us a living and the politicians tell us so does NOT make the rest of the world as stupid and think so.

As long as we keep feeding that mentality, he has easier paths and will not go the hard way. Nobody in their right mind will. It is just like socialism or communism or whatever it is called. If I get paid $X for the same work as the guy who works less, why should I work as hard? The way I see it, in their zeal to make the world a better place, people have tried to remove the pitfalls and add more safety blankets. When you remove the sting of failure, what is the motivation?

Bottom line is "Lights out. The party is over". We have to get used to it instead of trying to keep the lights and music on.

That is hard work with no certainties. We have that entitlement mentality which explains why people won't go for it as long as they are told there is an easier alternative.

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