Would appreciate remodeling advice from someone knowledgeable about wood floors.... - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JollyRoger · #1 03-03-2010, 12:08 PM

Our house is designed as an "open concept" floor plan, with what was supposed to be a large combination living-room/dining room at the center. Hurrican Ike was kind enough to demolish a porch I had facing the Gulf, so instead of repairing the porch, I built it back as a room addition as a formal dining room. This means I now have an enormous living room, now that the dining stuff has been removed to the new dining room. It is essentially a high-ceiling 16 x 26 hall of about 440 sq ft. I have been looking over some architectural websites, and have noticed that sheets of 4x8 Oak or Maple veneer plywood can be used a nice material to refloor large areas at a very economical cost, especially if I do the finish work myself. The 4x8 sheets look like crap in small areas, but in large open areas using spacing borders of oak plank between sheets, I think they look great. I have purchased the necessary sheets of red oak veneer plywood. It is of very good quality, and sanded smoother than a baby's behind on both sides. For flooring purposes, do I need to use a sanding sealer like this on it, even tho I do not foresee the need to actually sand any of it ?

http://www.olympic.com/stain_products/interior_stains/premium_sanding_sealer/index.htm

Is there a brand of polyurthane finish for floors that anyone would recommend ? Or any other advice, appreciated! Thanks, Kirk

kerry · #2 03-03-2010, 12:31 PM

I use oil based Varathane. It does not require sanding between coats, unlike other polyurethanes. I typically apply 3 coats. Formula changed a few years ago and it requires longer to dry between coats now.
I'd like to see pictures of your results when complete. I've gotten into the habit of installing solid oak hardwood flooring and finishing it without sanding. Few people can tell the difference.

buffa98 · #3 03-03-2010, 12:41 PM

It looks like that sanding sealer is to fill in the low spots. Depending on what type of finish you want would dictate the type of coating Poly or oil based. Last time i did wood refinishing the home center had a bunch of woos with the different finishes on the.
IMHO red oak would not require a high sheen just a satin type finish.
Before and after pics please.

SwampYankee · #4 03-03-2010, 01:08 PM

My understanding was that the sanding sealer was used to ensure you got even penetration and to prevent bleeding. I would think on large, veneered sheets that might be especially important as any stain/finish differences would be that much more glaring since uneven penetration would lead to dark or light spots. In a standard 2.25"/3"/etc. flooring application it's probably not as important as the color variation between the differing grain patterns would already exist.

kknudson · #5 03-03-2010, 01:30 PM

I would use some type of stain or sealer first.
NOT both.

I disagree with not sanding oil based varathane.

Adding coats within 4 to 6, maybe 8 hours, OK.
If it's been much longer then that a lite sanding should be done to rough up the surface to allow the next coat to adhere better.
note 180 or 220 wet/dry in wet mode.

Although for a larger area, because of the odor/VOCs, you might consider water based.
Not my personal preference, but other things may need to be consdered.
ie you may need to move out for a day or two till it airs out.

my83300cd · #6 03-03-2010, 02:24 PM

10 yrs ago I did a floor out of Advantec OSB 4 x 8 sheets. At cut ends I registered the pieces together using a biscuit jointer/cutter. Instead of sanding the floor I rented a large floor screener, screened the floor, and put down a coat of water based sealer followed by 3 coats water based poly, satin.

Its a studio space and gets lots of abuse (kids dance classes, martial arts, etc) and the only area where the finish is kinda beat is right by the door as it gets wet from shoes.

The advantec has held up really well, and to freshen up the finish all I have to do is rent the screener, screen the floor and put a few more coats on.

The water base I like because I can put a coat on in the morning, go do something alse, come back in the late afternoon and put another coat on. It also will not stink you out of your house.

kerry · #7 03-03-2010, 02:57 PM

Yes, coats of oil based Varathane poly need to be added within 8 hours although it dries slower nowadays so it's possible it could be longer. oil based will stink you out of your house. I tried water base Varathane but haven't gone back into that apt to see how it is holding up.

JollyRoger · #8 03-03-2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

My understanding was that the sanding sealer was used to ensure you got even penetration and to prevent bleeding. I would think on large, veneered sheets that might be especially important as any stain/finish differences would be that much more glaring since uneven penetration would lead to dark or light spots. In a standard 2.25"/3"/etc. flooring application it's probably not as important as the color variation between the differing grain patterns would already exist.

Yes, and that is where I get confused. I do small wood finishing projects as a hobby, and the technique I use is to first apply Olympic Wood Prep after sanding the wood. Next, I apply either Minwax or Olympic Gel stain, and then depending on the value of the item either Minwax poly or Epiphanes boat varnish (160$ a gallon!) if I want a classy finish, sanding with fine steel wool on coat 1 and 2 and 320 grit prior to coat 3 and 4. I get excellent results on things like bunk beds and household furniture items. But when I go to the sites that do with floors instead of furniture, they recommend a "sanding sealer" first. So I'm trying to figure out, is a stain "wood prep" the same as a "sanding sealer"? If possible, I'd like to stick with the technique I know is a winner, and just change the finish to a tougher polyurethane.

amosfella · #9 03-03-2010, 03:53 PM

Parents used a commercial gym floor finish in our house from Fargo paints. Mom doesn't think that there was a sanding sealer used. Finish is only starting to look like it might need redoing in a few very high traffic areas. It's about 25 years old...

JollyRoger · #10 03-03-2010, 04:29 PM

Whoa! Some useful information! 25 years?!!? I am right on it....

kerry · #11 03-03-2010, 04:33 PM

I looked a sanding sealers quite a few years ago. The ones I looked at were simply mineral spirits. So I just started wiping down my floors with mineral spirits before staining. It's always worked well.

amosfella · #12 03-03-2010, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyRoger

Whoa! Some useful information! 25 years?!!? I am right on it....

IIRC, it was a finish that was supposed to last on gym floors for 5 years based on 12 hours of use per day 7 days a week... We haven't refinished the floors in this house since new just about 25 years ago. However, we don't wear shoes in our house very often.

There is also a 2 part epoxy finish you you could put on about a quarter inch thick. It's the finish that you see coins or dollar bills, etc in tables or bar counters in. I don't know anyone that's tried it on a floor, but if this finish is dented, you just take a hot iron, and melt it back flat...

As you sound like a creative type, a finish like that could allow you to do some really neat 3 dimensional stuff in your floor.

http://www.uscomposites.com/kk121.html

Good luck, and post pics...

kknudson · #13 03-03-2010, 05:54 PM

re:Jollyrogers comment regarding using steel wool, I did that as everyone recommended for years.
But I found regular issue's with wool left on the surface, no matter how hard I tried to clean it, tack rags, vacuum, compressor.
Just my opinion.
Thats why I moved to wet sanding, I found the residue easy to remove and any left just disolves into the next coat.
And the sandpaper seems to last a long long time if you keep rinsing it, OK eventually the 220 becomes the 400 for the final finish but is continues to be usable.

I also have moved completely to the foam brushes, even for stain. Regular painting I use either, but varnishing is foam only. Put it in a baggie in the fridge (I have one in my workshop) and it's good for the next coat if used within ?? hours. They are also cheap and disposable.

Note though when they did the floor at the roller rink I work at, they used a sqeegee(?). Poured it on, and spread it out.

Finally, and this is another "my technique", and I don't always use it. When we remodeled the dining room (strip wallpaper, paneling, mirrors etc) the oak floors that were redone 15 or 20 years ago took a beating. nothing serious but they needed help.
I waxed them using a heavy duty wax, "carnuba in turpentine". Hard work buffing it on, let it harden, then buff and buff it out.
Tricked it out, it looks like new.

t walgamuth · #14 03-03-2010, 09:05 PM

The drawback with oak plywood is the thinness of the veneer. It is probably paper thin and will not tolerate much if any sanding if refinishing is needed.

Also any imperfections in the sub floor might result in mismatching joints. The oak flooring with its joints every 2.5" allows conformance to any imprefections and the full thickness of wood allows extensive sanding in the future if refinishing is needed.

I suppose any finishing method for solid hardwood will work on plywood.

barry123400 · #15 03-03-2010, 11:52 PM

Many years ago the decorative veneers on plywood where more substantial. I estimate their current thickness as less than or around 1/64th of an inch now. This will not tollerate a normal floor sander even once.

For a durable finish the composite click type floorings have it. Fine ground aluminium oxide powder is added to the finish medium. About the best selling and most durable common sandpaper today is made with larger grains of aluminium oxide as the cutting medium.

Generally you cannot get as hard a finish by self application. It also can work out cheaper than plywood and finishing it. Tremendous seller that I preffer not to use except in rentals. Then only sparingly.

As far as I know the only real downside is getting too much water on it . Damp mopping is okay though. Excess water migrates into the seams and swells the material. It is also very easy to clean. Women tend to like it as well. You also float it during installation as the product like true wood responds to humidity changes.

It is in demand because of two factors I believe. The relative cheapness of the product and ease of application. Plus as long as you buy the ones with the twenty five year warranty the finish is almost bullet proof.

We are forced by the extreme durability of the product finish to buy prefinished hardwood ourselves now. I cannot duplicate that prefinish toughness.

Ten years ago tried the water based polyurathane type finishes as well. Almost turned out to be a waste of money. They may be better now I do not want to find out though myself. I always used a squeegee to apply floor finishes. Very quick and the finish self levels well.

I should add a little explanation here of my aproach to building things. I will get a house or building up cheap. Yet no actual cheap or inferior materials are used. I never cut corners where asthetics are concerned either.

There is no secret really other than sourcing good materials far cheaper than others can usually get them. I may spend a day at a mill handpicking lumber for the whole house for example. So I pay only about half of what a normal buider pays for poorer lumber.

Never ever use a product like aspenite or chipboard as I usually can find douglas fir plywood for the same price with a little dilligence. I am driven for the building to be structually far stronger than the building codes ask for at really less cost than using the cheapest commonly used materials.

The building codes are too thin anyways. I go way over the insulation and tighness requirements. This means in thirty years it still will have low energy costs We track squarness and trueness plus quality of a build out of habit. It is too hard to achieve with inferior products.

We cannot even buy just a lift of lumber as I would reject at least half of it. Modern engineering stated that the practical average lifetime of modern housing construction might be as low as seventy five years. I personally found this concept rediculous on a poured concrete foundation.

The places I have built should last far longer. When a repair is needed they will be easy to repair as well. Structural rot should never be an issue. Most modern type materials used do not even like dampness.

Every house gets more screws used in construction than the last one. We overdo it all as it is too hard and costly to go back in later. I also keep an open mind.

Tucktape the red sealing tape used extensivly for example will lose the adhesive bond with time so we do it all with caulk sealants. Tieback is a nice easy to use product. But it usually will turn to dust with time. Maybe in five years in all too many cases. So you should plan for it to be gone.

We also found a single vapour barrier inside is not enough. We use two. It simply is a case of I want a place errected to the same standards as if it were for ourselves or any member of my family. I lose no sleep over something done poorly or substandard after it is finished.