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  #151  
Old 04-29-2010, 10:33 AM
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barry and tom: thanks for the the thoughtful, well stated posts.

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  #152  
Old 04-29-2010, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
I did. If you want to squeeze this in and say that is what the constitution is trying to accomplish and therefore we have to do it, we could also say that bailing out any small business fits in "general welfare" all the way to butt wiping.
I think the language is quite clear. There is nothing in the Preamble that charges the g'ment with your silly suggestion.
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  #153  
Old 04-29-2010, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Chas H View Post
I think the language is quite clear.

There is nothing in the Preamble that charges the g'ment with your silly suggestion.
Yes it is clear what the preamble says the constitution is there to try achieve. It does not do the same thing as the constitution, does it? It might be used to gain some insight to what is written in the constitition but do you know of any court cases that have used it as a deciding factor in the trial?

Why not? Are you saying helping out small businesses in trouble CANNOT be deemed as for general welfare? I would certainly think someone can make a case for that. But yes, I understand your point. If you think it is a good idea, it should be squeezed in. Somebody else's idea, maybe not.
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  #154  
Old 04-29-2010, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
Tom, you should take some credit yourself. Many times it is the intangiables that swing things our way. I too am also blessed with a good wife incidentally.

We also were very fortunate to have four daughters that grew up pretty well. Not perfect mind you but far better adjusted than the mean average both emotionally and intellectually. I should ask the wife sometime if they are really mine as well. That way I can have my head served up for dinner.

I have always had more than one iron in the fire. Even today possibly from habit at age 67 I still do it. Call it fall back positions perhaps.

I also try to keep it balanced so if one iron gets cold another is hot enough already to easily meet current needs. The reserve ones keep piling up and could employ many people or my time for the next hundred years.

I do not really know how people develop enough self confidence. In my mind it is a critical component to well being. . At the same time perhaps a lot of people did not either have the opportunities or were distracted too much from aquiring the essentials of life to develop it. One small item can rotate a persons life. The ability to see what others cannot percieve sometimes is a blessing and a curse.

I also see life as a bit of a gamble. You have to at times engage risk. Especially when young. The secret perhaps is adaquatly and accuratly evaluating it before engaging. Or just possesing enough awareness to structure it better your self.

If the engagement of risk is forced on you then it may be just coincidence on how it works out. Then the factor of the unknown enters the picture sometimes as well. Not a pleasant senario to travel through. That journey can be a major learning experience or be a fear development event. Much depends on your perception.

One thing that has not been mentioned with unemployment that is unexpected or prolonged is the depressing factor. Actually an interm clinical depression type syndrome can develop that further inhibits a persons chances of gaining employment. Basically the person may start to feel almost worthless for example. This in my opinion is quite understandable. We are fundementally emotional creatures.

This area can leave very long lasting mental shadows. For example my mother and father lived through the great depression. They were semi scarred by the event to some extent permanently.

A lot of members on site have possibly heard relatives for example talk about it at one time or another. For many the unemployment lasted a very long time and changed hopes and life for perhaps millions of people. Our expected system at that time just took a very long nosedive. This is one reason that regardless of cause I take longer periods of unemployment as a serious social issue.

I do not think one can develop a clear picture of how it impacts an individual really without being there yourself. One can say for example I am 200k underwater on my house. I would not personally experience the feelings that senario develops in the individual. Nor could I properly visualise them.

Once again it is a situation you have to be exposed to yourself to appreciate the true effects in my opinion. I suspect for example either a rise in divorce rates attribuatable to this or a reduction. It is too early to tell as people are waiting for a value recovery and how much percentagewise wise it will be.

It may for example help to sit down with paper and pen. List true replacement costs for the house ignoring the currrent markets evaluation. Theoretically it should at least recover to true current replacement value. supply and demand should enable that after awhile.

If one just paid the market price during a peak that really had no relationship to true value there will be difficulty. For example if I can have a builder put up a simular new house for say 200k today in your area and you paid 350k for your property there is no true recovery.

Sure ultimatly you will see 350 again but not in todays dollars. The reality then is you have lost 150k in real wealth long term. I understand the forces that enabled it. In a way it has the scope of the 1929 crash but in a normally more secure area. The best hope currently is some form of recovery adaquate enough to reabsorb the unemployed.
If you couldn't make the payments on your home that is $200K under water - believe me - you'd get the picture of depression, visualizing it in your mind. Without cash flow it doesn't matter what one's background, etc. they still can't pay their bills.

The bubble of greed that drove housing market costs higher and higher left the last people in holding the bag. When they cannot keep up with the debt service they agreed to on their overpriced homes - then they lose them. They have become the greater fool holding the bag so to speak.

It really doesn't matter what dollars they bought the homes with were worth, since they could not be re-sold for the same $350K. If inflation kicks in, and or when the greed factor returns, their homes once again will be worth $350K. In retrospect - they didn't make such a good deal, since they overpaid in the first place. However the market environment at the time dictated the home was indeed worth $350K.

I don't know how you can protect someone from their own free will and greed, even though some are still looking for others to blame and take the fall for them. Many have found out they're not really worth what they thought they were, because of market conditions. I certainly accept no responsibility for their poor planning and choices, or the free market. I have my own planning and choices I'm busy living with.
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  #155  
Old 04-29-2010, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe View Post
I don't know how you can protect someone from their own free will and greed, even though some are still looking for others to blame and take the fall for them. Many have found out they're not really worth what they thought they were, because of market conditions. I certainly accept no responsibility for their poor planning and choices, or the free market. I have my own planning and choices I'm busy living with.
When you made money, you didn't scream and yell. When you got an upside down mortgage, you were fine with it. However, now that thing suck, you can't pay up and lose everything, you complain? Sorry, I wouldn't be interested in hearing it. Just as if BH stock fell down tomorrow and wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. You made all that money in the past so you can't complain when it goes down. When you signed the loan contract, you knew the terms. If you don't calculate things properly, don't blame the other party. As you said, you can't protect someone from their own risky behavior.

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