The obvious question is then, "How does one BEST address the problems of historical racism?
The two solutions that spring to mind are,
1) " Reverse discrimination" which is still racial discrimination only aimed to help the race that was historically hurt.
2) End all racial discrimination and set-asides. This would be the true, "anti-discrimination" solution as it would ban all future use of race for either positive or negative results. People would be truly judged on the content of their character.

There was a book a few years ago that purported to show that in the history of civilization, whenever a society made a decision to favor one specific race, it always worked that detriment of that race. Are we somehow better or smarter than all who have gone before?

Eh? The old your great grand dad might have done bad things to my great grand dad so you need to give me money. I'll collect the money even though your great grand dad could have never met mine.

What about vulcans and klingons? :cool:

Or, the other way to look at it . . . manifest destiny had a price that hasn't been fully paid yet.

Yes, or I look at it like this- Aklim and his family could get jobs and work I could not because he is a minority and I am not. Now he is a recent immigrant- and his family was not here before, ever. So I, and all non minorities are essentially giving him $ even despite the fact our ancestors never met and lived on different continents. Of I could look at it like this: BHO's mom's family could have owned as slaves some of BHO's dad's family, and so he gets opportunities/$$$ and I don't, and on top of that I have to pay for those opportunities? :confused:
Anytime someone else falls down and I get the skinned knees I tend to object. I'd like to pay for my mistakes, not someones I never met who lived hundreds of years prior to my birth, based on my skin color alone. It's especially hard because at the time the "mistakes" were not considered mistakes and the folks who owned slaves did so without breaking laws. If I told you that hundreds of years from now your "kids" would be paying my "kids" because of what you are doing now hundreds of miles from me and we never met, all legally and without guilt- we'd all be laughing at how stupid that is. Okay maybe you wouldn't because your kids would be paying my kids.

Uh, is there a invoice I could see so that I know when the bill is paid? Most that take your view think the bill will NEVER be paid- and so reverse discrimination will continue FOREVER.

Not forever.

If you think all the damage from slavery and Jim Crow laws have been undone in 50 years I will heartily disagree.

Discrimination hatred and bias still exists. It's can't be outlawed. It has only been 2 generations since the legal issues were dealt with. It will take ore time fro the people to loose their hatred for their fellow man.

I have never heard of a deadline when the "debt" is paid- or a reasonable reason why a debt from past legal behavior of dead folks we all never met is being paid by folks who never met the folks they are paying. Nor have I heard the conditions that ought to be met so that the debt would be considered repaid.


And the reason for this idiotic circle of logic? ... "discrimination and bias still exist", and those that favor these laws admit that the laws will not stop the "bias".

Red Yellow Black or White they're are all cool in my sight. :):):)

I agree,

I disagree that some folks are more equal than others.

So what does 300 or 400 years of servitude and discrimination deserve?

It's not like in 1964 when the Civil Rights act was passed that everything was hunky dorry. I do not know what the answer is. I do know that a school in South LA is different from one in Beverly Hills. I do know that inner city neighborhoods seem to be at a disadvantage of more affluent areas. I do know that minorities still face too many situations where their skin color or nationality are held against them when it comes to loans, admission and the rest. So how does that get addressed?

I remember a author of a op-ed piece from while back. He spoke of the difference between collective responsibility and collective guilt.

Just a side note. My father still gets monthly payments from Germany as restitution for his years in Auschwitz. How much do you think his time in the camps was worth? Most of the people in Germany now were not alive then. Slavery may have been abolished a while back, but it's legacy lives on. Discrimination was only outlawed 2 years before I was born. I work with a man who would not have been allowed to sit with me at a dinner. re we just supposed to forgive and forget just because you may not have been alive or guilt of discrimination?

Like I said, I do not know what should be done. I do know that doing nothing is not an option.

I've lived by a credo that I thought of myself. Want to hear it? :D:D:D

might it have something to do with a certain fermented, aged, hops and grains based beverage? (just a guess. :D )

Nope, this come from the serious part of me. Do you still want to hear it? :D

have i ever failed you? :D

do tell.


(we'll always have paris.)

Here it is..... oh wait a minute I need get me a beer...... I promise my saying is worth the wait. :D:D:D

I understand the history, and it's not good for some folks. That's the nature of humans, clearly so because of the thousands of years of recording it have shown so. The ONLY final solution is to stop trying to place barriers around folks and making them different from each other. Human nature says we should dislike different people, and in order to stop that the first step we have to take is to remove the labels that make us different.
Nearly all of the statements around race and bias is centered around the idea that "many folks are still closet racists" (my words, not quoting anyone here). Since there are still closet racists (?) and they are assumed to have the power to bring down minorities we as a whole have to build those minorities back up is how the logic goes. What if the racists are not the bosses? We already have laws specifically against race based crimes. So now we assume the racists are the bosses and they keep the minority down. Can't prove it at all, just assume. Now I'm not a boss, nor am I sure what "race" I'd call myself, being adopted, but I'm forced to pay for something I did not do, had no inkling of, or approved of, and paying it to someone who was not alive and never met any of my ancestors doing legal, natural courses of life. The cycle feeds on itself and in order to climb above it we have to STOP making ourselves different from each other. THAT'S the action needing to take place- not taking money from one man and giving it to another man by some arbitrary panel complex of gov programs.

Here it is my man. Quote: The Only Person That I am "Better Than", is a person that thinks that they are better than myself.


I am sick and tired of stereotypes. We are ALL God's creations and we all should get along. I do have a problem with a certain race that think that "they" are the chosen Race. :eek:

i like that.

oh, and yes, there is no "chosen race".

have another beer. :D

Who thinks they are the chosen race?

[QUOTE=tonkovich;2480618]i like that.

oh, and yes, there is no "chosen race".
:)Agreed my man.

just about every "race" that i know of. its called ethnocentrism.

The BIA may be informative, but they'll more likely just give you the runaround. I worked on the rez for 11 years and have intimate knowlege of the arcane workings of the BIA. Anyone interested in enrolling with a tribe should directly contact that particular tribe's enrollment office. If all you have to go on is the old "your great great grandma's sister was a Kikapoo Princess", you're undoubtedly SOL. The requirements for tribal membership are entirely up to individual tribes. The Cherokee tribe has no degree of blood requirement, but applicants must show a verified direct paper trail (birth certificates and census rolls) to a member of the Dawes enrollment. It's very difficult to enroll as Cherokee. My wife is a 4/4 member of the Hopi Tribe. I'm not, which makes my son 2/4. He's also enrolled. The Hopis require 1/4 blood quantum for membership. That means an applicant must have at least one enrolled grandparent who is full blooded. Until about 20 years ago, they further required that that relationship had to be on the individual's mother's side. Dad's Hopi and Mom's not? Tough noogies. The rules are similar for the Navajo tribe, the largest in the country. Plains, midwestern and eastern tribes tend to have lesser degree of blood requirements for their own survival as tribal entities, as those cultures have been intermarrying with non-indians for much longer and there just aren't hardly any full-bloods left.
The High Country News has a very interesting article on indian tribal membership. There are quite a few FULL BLOODED indians in this country who cannot be recognized as members of a tribe due to the fact that they are of mixed tribal ancestry and can't come up with 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 of any single type. Sadly, in this country you can't qualify for any federal native benefits, such as healthcare unless you're an enrolled member of a recognized tribe.
http://www.hcn.org/issues/41.1/blood-quantum

What gets me most on the census form is the inclusion of hispanic under race. Hispanic is not a race, but a cultural/linguistic heritage. Alberto Fujimori is hispanic, so are all those black Cuban baseball players, former Mexican President Vicente Fox's grandfather was an Irish immigrant to the U.S. White as the driven snow.

Obama is by definition...
 

a Quadroon.

Look it up.

I am a mutt-Scottish-Irish-French-Scandanavian-Cherokee

in other words...an average white American.

I gotta ask: How much of the hatred/bias/racism is perpetuated by the young folks of all colors hearing and seeing that the gov gives certain races more money/chances/grants etc? If the gov is giving them grants perhaps they are somehow a lesser person the logic would go. Watching "COPS" and then seeing that blacks get preferential treatment for these housing/grants/gov money might give the impression that blacks are not as smart, hard working, etc as other groups, which is why they need to have these advantages.

Do you ...
(those that think these advantage paid to make up for the past bad actions)
think any non blacks develop a negative mindset because they get these extra things?

My census form said Hispanics were NOT a race;

which is why you can't be racist to a Hispanic.

[QUOTE=MTUpower;2481781

Do you ...
(those that think these advantage paid to make up for the past bad actions)
think any non blacks develop a negative mindset because they get these extra things?[/QUOTE]


That may be a contributing factor but I suspect it is more a product of the neighborhoods, schools and home environment.

I remember when I was in grade school and became aware that there were racial groupings etc.

I asked my dad what we were. He said....."Scotch, Irish, German, Dutch and a little bit of Indian". He said it quickly as if he had rehearsed it.

I liked that. He made it clear that racial makeup or genetic heritage was not important, but what you do with yourself in life.

Actually we are mostly German ancestry but perhaps 1/16 Native american since my great grandma was an orphan but looked at least half Native american.

I probably should get one of those blood analysis's just for the sake of curiousity.

Most of what you listed is nationality, Tom. It's not okay to list your race as "Irish" or "French" in this modern world.

I was adopted, and had two sets of foster siblings- one set was Japanese, the other Fillipino. My "full" brother is Chippewa Indian, my sister born and raised in Central Russia. My wife and kids are Hispanic (not a race according to the feds) I don't give a hoot about skin color or nationality or "race". It's a barrier to segregate and compartmentalize people by "race"- as soon as you do then your mind will automatically- by nature - give them traits that others of that race have been exhibited and seen by you. If you take away the "race", then you are less likely to do this.

Yes.

I realize that the form doesn't specify hispanic as a race, but it is the only place on the form where cultural/linguistic heritage is singled out if I'm remembering correctly. It's technically true that you can't be racist to a latino because latino isn't a race, but bigotry is rarely bothered making those kind of fine distinctions.

Those "fine distinctions" and the "technicality" could mean tens or hundreds of millions of dollars given to a group over time, nor not. Court cases are decided on technicalities. Also given is that folks will dislike other folks based on whatever opinion has been formed in their mind- race or no race. Noting this to be true, taking away the word "race" only improves the situation IMHO. We need to do everything possible to inhibit folks from making a poor opinion of others unlike themselves and start saying we are all HUMAN. Making sure that is taught from a young age- that were are all the same race- will do better than the current system of trying to stuff folks into categories which are at best not clearly defined and to which folks may or may not fit. If you then says this group or that group was hurt in the past and that is why we need to give them more of another groups money, it sure looks like that the group getting the money is the lesser of the two, and fails to measure up to the group giving the money.

interesting point.

however, as i am sure you know, it is more complicated. and no, i am not about to make a plea to resume "busing" on a grand scale. :D one cannot legislate "color-blindness".

No, but you sure can have sanctions when someone ACTS.
You can't legislate "hate" from people, but you can prosecute for murder resulting from that hatred.
You can't make people like driving the speed limit, but you can fine them for exceeding it.

you are correct, of course. those guys in texas come to mind, and the dragging of that man behind the pickup. they enforced the laws already on the books, and those clowns are either dead or in jail forever.

Not this one.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/05/national/main5065180.shtml

ouch!

well, i guess we better mention the jena six incident as well.

but how do you police.. the police?

It's easy. Police are policed by those policed.

I don't get it- they were partying with the black guy and went to buy beer according to the story. How are they racist? How did a judge drop the case? Not enough evidence. Case closed if you ask me.

well, it seems a little fishy. you argue with your friends, get out and start walking, and they come from behind and run you down. and you happen to be black, and your driving "friend" is white..? not even manslaughter?

anyway, just one way of seeing it. and because there is a history of "racism" in the south, well...

which shows that race is on everyone's mind. whether or not it was really an issue in the original crime, or the subsequent legal decisions.

anyway. i wasn't there. i have no idea what happened.

German Shephard + Poodle does not equal Poodle


It equals Poodle with a baaaaaaaaad attitude.


Strict liability in Tort for vicious dogs = they get the first bite for free !!!!!!


:laugh4:

Nazis investigating Nazis.

That's it; call the opposition "Nazi".

I see more anti-"minority" sentiment in NY than in the south.

well, i did say history. not a rich history of slavery, jim crow, the klan and lynchings in new york. on the other hand, their seems to be no love lost between the italians and the blacks. or the irish and the ... even now.

I recently read in 1901 there were 1100 lynchings of black folks in America.

And it was not confined to the deep south, we had at least one in Marion Indiana in the thirties.

hey, and here in california we rounded up all the "dirty yellow japs" (sic) and shipped them off, even though most of them happened to be u.s. citizens. let's give credit where it's due.

At least you didn't lynch them, though I wouldn't be surprised if some were killed in that hysterical time period.

Not really. Concerned citizens can have a large say in the conduct of the local police. But some police actions that are unacceptable to outsiders are condoned locally.