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  #1  
Old 08-17-2010, 02:53 PM
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Meet the new boss, same as the old boss!

Won’t get fooled again!

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgment of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again

Change it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fall that's all
But the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
And I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
For I know that the hypnotized never lie

Do ya?


There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss


Indianapolis auto workers drive UAW executives out of meeting

”Workers at a General Motors stamping plant in Indianapolis, Indiana chased United Auto Workers executives out of a union meeting Sunday, after the UAW demanded workers accept a contract that would cut their wages in half.

As soon as three UAW International representatives took the podium, they were met with boos and shouts of opposition from many of the 631 workers currently employed at the plant. The officials, attempting to speak at the only informational meeting on the proposed contract changes, were forced out within minutes of taking the floor.”

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/aug2010/inds-a17.shtml

How's that hope and change working out for you?

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  #2  
Old 08-17-2010, 03:32 PM
Pooka
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 664
The Hope and Change is working out well for a friend of mine. He is a currency trader, and with the dollar increasing in strength he has cleared about $40,000,000 this year. The Greek debt crisis helped a lot and he sends his thanks to all the Republicans that kept this in the news for as long as they did.

As far as the story you shared with us above it should be noted that it left out a few details that some would think are important. Such as... If the workers accepted the contract being offered, which was in violation of a contract signed three years ago, they would have had to take about a 50% pay cut. It did say that.

It did not say: If they did not accept it they would be transferred to other GM plants and keep their current wages.

If you have ever been to a Union meeting where something like this is being discussed you will feel right at home after reading this story. The World Socialist Worker acts as if this is something new. Where have they been for the last 70 years?

It appears that the plant in question is being sold by GM and the new owners want to pay workers far less than GM is. Before they can get rid of the GM workers they have to, by contract, offer them jobs and the workers, by contract, have to accept the lower wagers being offered. Or not. By rejecting the new contract the GM workers are free to accept positions elsewhere and the new owners are free to hire people to take their places.

The UAW leaders, by contract, have to present the management offer to the members for a vote and the members can then comment on the contract. It appears they did this and now it is time to move forward on what they were going to do anyway.

I remember a contract discussion at the BIG OIL company where the management demanded a response to their offer and they wanted it RIGHT NOW. So the Union sent a Telegram that said:

Addressee: Mr. Bigshot

Title: President and CEO of BIG OIL...

To wit.... In reply to your message demanding prompt reply...

DROP DEAD... Strong message to follow... (stop)... Give my love to the wife and kids...(stop)

Signed... Union Rep...

Another take on this story is at www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=12982758
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  #3  
Old 08-17-2010, 03:33 PM
TylerH860's Avatar
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Wichita, Ks
Posts: 5,187
Ugh, I'm surprised you could stand the socialist slant of the whole dang article.

15.50 an hour = 30k a year before taxes. I'm also assuming they get some benefits on top of that? Still, though, too low to make a comfortable living.

29.50 an = about 56k a year! Considering its a low skill, low education job, that is a whole lot of money. You can't expect industry to stay in the US with labor that high.

It does seem silly to me, though, that these folks would rather let the plant close than take a pay cut. That's the reality they're facing, unless the entire Asian continent suddenly sinks into the ocean... I know of plenty of people around here who would line up for a steady, easy, 30k a year job with benefits right now.
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  #4  
Old 08-17-2010, 03:40 PM
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It is the sweetest of ironies that the Unions are forced to negotiate with their members now that the unions are majority stockholders!
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  #5  
Old 08-17-2010, 11:15 PM
Pooka
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 664
They have always been in talks with their members. According to their contracts they have to do this, at least it has been for the 40 years I used to deal with this sort of thing.

And none of these people are going to lose their jobs. They are just going to transfer to other GM plants.

This is a standard activity any time a sale like this goes through. I have never been involved in the sale or purchase of an oil refinery where it did not take place.

And if you think this meeting was out of control... At least no one wound up in the Emergency Room. That still happens, too.
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  #6  
Old 08-17-2010, 11:25 PM
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Location: Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooka View Post
They have always been in talks with their members. According to their contracts they have to do this, at least it has been for the 40 years I used to deal with this sort of thing.

And none of these people are going to lose their jobs. They are just going to transfer to other GM plants.

This is a standard activity any time a sale like this goes through. I have never been involved in the sale or purchase of an oil refinery where it did not take place.

And if you think this meeting was out of control... At least no one wound up in the Emergency Room. That still happens, too.
Your missing the point still, the UAW leadership is part of the management team now, the UAW is a stockholder in the new GM! They are in the position of negotiating with and against their own membership!
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  #7  
Old 08-17-2010, 11:32 PM
Palangi's Avatar
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Michael Moore's uncle's head would be spinning.......
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  #8  
Old 08-18-2010, 12:37 AM
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Location: los angeles
Posts: 451
yes, paying workers "high" wages is always bad. just look at henry ford.

oh, wait a minute, maybe not. history, that pesky history, sometimes tells a different story. pity no one learns it, or from it.

Steven HillDirector of the Political Reform Program at the New America Foundation
Posted: January 8, 2007 06:07 PM

Henry Ford and the Minimum Wage
Politics News



By Dmitri Iglitzin and Steven Hill

As President Bush and the Congress prepare to debate an increase in the federal minimum wage, they could learn much from the economic wisdom of one of America's most successful business leaders -- Henry Ford.

Ford was, among other things, a famously domineering employer and a supporter of fascists, but he was also an economic pioneer. He not only perfected the techniques of mass assembly of automobiles, but he also foresaw that his efforts would not amount to great profits if average Americans could not afford to buy all those cars. He saw that putting higher wages in his workers' pockets was good for his own bottom line, and good for the national economy too.

So Ford shocked the world in 1914 when he unilaterally introduced his own minimum wage for his employees, more than doubling the average wage in the auto industry by raising it from $2.34 per day to $5 per day. As Ford put it, raising wages "has the same effect as throwing a stone in a still pond," creating an "ever-widening circle of buying" that increases everyone's prosperity.

It was a simple formula that the U.S. has utilized many times since: adequate wages create happier consumers which contribute to a humming economy.

read more

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-hill/henry-ford-and-the-minimu_b_38140.html

if you dare.


or bash the working man, if you wish.
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  #9  
Old 08-18-2010, 01:02 AM
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Location: Cape Cod Massachusetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkovich View Post
yes, paying workers "high" wages is always bad. just look at henry ford.

oh, wait a minute, maybe not. history, that pesky history, sometimes tells a different story. pity no one learns it, or from it.

Steven HillDirector of the Political Reform Program at the New America Foundation
Posted: January 8, 2007 06:07 PM

Henry Ford and the Minimum Wage
Politics News



By Dmitri Iglitzin and Steven Hill

As President Bush and the Congress prepare to debate an increase in the federal minimum wage, they could learn much from the economic wisdom of one of America's most successful business leaders -- Henry Ford.

Ford was, among other things, a famously domineering employer and a supporter of fascists, but he was also an economic pioneer. He not only perfected the techniques of mass assembly of automobiles, but he also foresaw that his efforts would not amount to great profits if average Americans could not afford to buy all those cars. He saw that putting higher wages in his workers' pockets was good for his own bottom line, and good for the national economy too.

So Ford shocked the world in 1914 when he unilaterally introduced his own minimum wage for his employees, more than doubling the average wage in the auto industry by raising it from $2.34 per day to $5 per day. As Ford put it, raising wages "has the same effect as throwing a stone in a still pond," creating an "ever-widening circle of buying" that increases everyone's prosperity.

It was a simple formula that the U.S. has utilized many times since: adequate wages create happier consumers which contribute to a humming economy.

read more

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-hill/henry-ford-and-the-minimu_b_38140.html

if you dare.


or bash the working man, if you wish.
Too bad the fundamental distinction between the free will choices of a free enterprise individual business owner as opposed to the federal government mandating some arbitrary compensation floor for every employee of every business are either inconsequential or incomprehensible to you!
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  #10  
Old 08-18-2010, 06:54 AM
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Location: los angeles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billybob View Post
Too bad the fundamental distinction between the free will choices of a free enterprise individual business owner as opposed to the federal government mandating some arbitrary compensation floor for every employee of every business are either inconsequential or incomprehensible to you!
as always, you avoid the facts, and try to reframe the argument. (and fail)
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  #11  
Old 08-19-2010, 12:16 AM
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Posts: 86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkovich View Post
yes, paying workers "high" wages is always bad. just look at henry ford.

oh, wait a minute, maybe not. history, that pesky history, sometimes tells a different story. pity no one learns it, or from it.

Steven HillDirector of the Political Reform Program at the New America Foundation
Posted: January 8, 2007 06:07 PM

Henry Ford and the Minimum Wage
Politics News



By Dmitri Iglitzin and Steven Hill

As President Bush and the Congress prepare to debate an increase in the federal minimum wage, they could learn much from the economic wisdom of one of America's most successful business leaders -- Henry Ford.

Ford was, among other things, a famously domineering employer and a supporter of fascists, but he was also an economic pioneer. He not only perfected the techniques of mass assembly of automobiles, but he also foresaw that his efforts would not amount to great profits if average Americans could not afford to buy all those cars. He saw that putting higher wages in his workers' pockets was good for his own bottom line, and good for the national economy too.

So Ford shocked the world in 1914 when he unilaterally introduced his own minimum wage for his employees, more than doubling the average wage in the auto industry by raising it from $2.34 per day to $5 per day. As Ford put it, raising wages "has the same effect as throwing a stone in a still pond," creating an "ever-widening circle of buying" that increases everyone's prosperity.

It was a simple formula that the U.S. has utilized many times since: adequate wages create happier consumers which contribute to a humming economy.

read more

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steven-hill/henry-ford-and-the-minimu_b_38140.html

if you dare.


or bash the working man, if you wish.
Glad to see somebody else has some brains on this forum(time for the usual four ninnys to chime in)
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  #12  
Old 08-19-2010, 12:52 AM
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Posts: 207
I think what you guys are missing here is that Ford raised his wages to double the norm without being told he had to do it by the government or the unions. Local2Ed- was there a UAW at that time, and if so did Ford employees belong to it? I have read numerous books about Ford, but I don't recall what the union status was at that point in history.
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  #13  
Old 08-19-2010, 01:19 AM
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Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10fords View Post
I think what you guys are missing here is that Ford raised his wages to double the norm without being told he had to do it by the government or the unions. Local2Ed- was there a UAW at that time, and if so did Ford employees belong to it? I have read numerous books about Ford, but I don't recall what the union status was at that point in history.
Don't know if Ford was unionized at that time but Henry Ford was not union friendly. The typical union haters say unions are no longer needed but can you tell me ANY company today, union or not would double the employee's wages with the idea of the more money they make, they might just spend it on the products their building? Look back at the era Tonkovich is referring to, The strategy worked quite well for Henry Ford.
A funny thing is Mr. Ford didn't feel his" uneducated workforce" were overpaid For their "low skilled, easy" job. Can't deny Mr. Ford didn't know what he was doing, but I'm sure the "experts" on this forum would argue that.
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  #14  
Old 08-19-2010, 01:29 AM
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Posts: 1,895
Somehow, ole Billiebob usurping The Who for his nefarious right leaning agenda just doesn't sit well with me....
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  #15  
Old 08-19-2010, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmbdiesel View Post
Somehow, ole Billiebob usurping The Who for his nefarious right leaning agenda just doesn't sit well with me....
the who, down through the 60's and even today, supported many conservative causes. if you play all the records backwards, you can - thru the years - hear messages of love and support for goldwater, nixon, thatcher, reagan, etc.

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