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#1
10-12-2010, 02:20 PM
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Afghanistan/Vietnam question
I was just watching a National Geographic documentary on the Afghanistan war.
This was is eerily similar to the Vietnam war. 1. the 'no see ums' enemy 2. the hearts and minds strategy 3. the booby traps 4. seems like it's been going on a a long time How do you win a war if you don't know who the enemy is? I wonder if they have an exit strategy. A better question-- how do you know if you have "won"?
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Ben 1987 190d 2.5Turbo 
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#2
10-12-2010, 03:08 PM
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Well I am the generation whose fathers were the Vietnam Vets so I can tell you what was told to me. From a military stand point we won every battle in nam. But because of the political climate at that point all the media would do was show the body counts on the news.
The other point was the hit and run tactics that the VC used were very effective destroying morale because you never knew when and where the next hit was coming from. Kind of like where we are now: these different tribes of people have been fight for thousands of years. They dont like each other and never will right now they are united against us as the common enemy. When we pull out I have a firm belief that with in 15-20 years we will be in the same boat again.
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86 300SDL. 250,xxx on #14 Head. One eye always on temp gauge.  . Cruising towards 300K
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#3
10-12-2010, 03:21 PM
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So how do you know if you have 'won' that war?
This is the perplexing part for me. Maybe if they can convince those poppy farmers to stop farming and open 7-11's and Days Inns instead.
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Ben 1987 190d 2.5Turbo
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#4
10-12-2010, 04:31 PM
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If the US had given serious thought to the experience of the French in Vietnam and the British and Russians in Afghanistan, the decision to go to war might have been different.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08 1985 300TD 185k+ 1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03 1985 409d 65k--sold 06 1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car 1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11 1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper 1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4 1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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#5
10-12-2010, 04:41 PM
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Its a no win situation. We wage a conventional war against an indigent guerrilla movement. they blend in and move freely. We stand out and move in large armored targets. Politically it is no win too.
Not too different from when Italy attacked Etheopia prior to WW2, or our revolutionary war against the British. it is their country, all they have to do is survive and eventually we will leave and they can go back to what they were doing before.
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.  [SIGPIC]..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.
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#6
10-12-2010, 05:12 PM
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Neither was intended to be a "war" with the goal of defeating an enemy and capturing real estate. One was a "proxy war" that neither side wanted to escalate beyond the third world; i.e., neither side wanted to "win," they just wanted the other side to blink first (so they could move another chess piece). The other is essentially a "police action"; a hunt for bad guys in a country that does not particularly want the US there but doesn't have much choice in the matter. It's pretty obvious that in the first case the military leadership didn't understand the nature of the conflict, and in the second case they were never given sufficient resources to do the job. In both cases the results were predictable.
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#7
10-12-2010, 06:08 PM
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The US news media reporting body counts in Vietnam or political pressure had NOTHING to do with the US loosing that war. The US was just plain out-fought.
The French tried to tell Eisenhower to stay out and he wouldn't listen. He was just going to put in a few 'advisors' and help the locals. A few turned into 500k. In the end it would have been cheaper to give each Vietcong a mansion in Beverly Hills and a million dollars than to kill him. I read lately that it took an average of 50k rounds of ammo to kill one Vietcong. We should have not been in Vietnam or Somalia, both of which we lost and we sure as hell should not be in Iraq or Afghanistan, both of which we will loose. Can you imagine the schools, medical care, infrastructure, etc. that that kind of money could buy. And in all these cases the only people who won were military equipment suppliers.
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#8
10-12-2010, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_Boer_War#Third_phase:_Guerrilla_war_.28September_1900_.E2.80.93_May_1902.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare#Counter-guerrilla_warfare (It's sad how you can just check off on that list all of the failures in Afghanistan)
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1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out 1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out) 1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481)  "The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."
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#9
10-12-2010, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
3,000 Americans, (2) 110 story office buildings, in NYC, and (4) civilian airliners don't get killed or destroyed every few weeks on American soil - by Muslim extremists. That's "how you know we have won......"
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#10
10-12-2010, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
1. In VietNam, the issue was who had greater influence: China+Russia (through the VietMinh) or the US + the Diem government. This is in stark contrast to the dynamic among secular vs tribal govts vs AQ-backed Taliban. A different three-way conflict. 2. In a tribe-based government, there will never be freedom. It is the crudest form of government, with littl chance for change, completely dependent on the personality of the tribal chief in power at the moment. Any government rooted in religion stays the same and strongly resists change. The religion is typically exploited to reinforce the power structure. This was true with Christian kings before; and is true now both with Taliban and NON-Taliban tribes. It's about the power and keeping it.
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Strelnik Invest in America: Buy a Congressman! 1950 170SD 1951 Citroen 11BN 1953 Citroen 11BNF limo 1953 220a project 1959 180D 1960 190D 1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr 1983 240D daily driver 1983 380SL 1990 350SDL daily driver alt 3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5 3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6
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#11
10-12-2010, 07:22 PM
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You can't win a hearts and minds war, it just drags you into the other guys politics. The only way to win such a war is to kill enough people until the hearts and minds come to you, since you are all that's left. The Russians tried this, it doesn't work in a country like that.
The only way we could possible "win" in Afghanistan since they have no country to destroy, would be to set up camps and systematically kill off enough of the tribes so the ones that fight have no one left to fight. Than we would have to colonize them for several generations while they adopt our style of thinking. So in other words its time to leave.
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1999 SL500 1969 280SE 2023 Ram 1500 2007 Tiara 3200
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#12
10-12-2010, 07:48 PM
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#13
10-12-2010, 07:56 PM
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Agreed. But what happens to Afghanistan when NATO pulls out?
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1982 300GD Carmine Red (DB3535) Cabriolet Parting Out 1990 300SEL Smoke Silver (Parting out) 1991 350SDL Blackberry Metallic (481) "The thing is Bob, its not that I'm lazy...its that I just don't care."
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#14
10-12-2010, 08:23 PM
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#15
10-12-2010, 08:55 PM
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I just feel sorry for all those civilians on the documentary. They don't look like they would have anything to do with blowing up buildings. They all looked so poor begging for water from the soldiers. Hardly the type I think but what do I know? What do you propose?
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Ben 1987 190d 2.5Turbo
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