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  #1  
Old 12-09-2010, 06:16 PM
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More nails in the coffin of MMGW

There are several.
1) Al Gore's admission that he backed ethanol for pure political reasons--the IOWA presidential caucuses. Combine that admission with the further admission that ethanol is a net energy loss, and you wonder if Al Gore will ever have any credibility. Nor should he.

2) WikiLeaks---shows how the US government used coercion to gain support for MMGW

3) The recent near by scientists that we are on the verge of a new ice age.

All this on top of the scandal this summer over "manipulated " data.

It should be becoming ever more clear that the real purpose of MMGW fears is to transfer $$$$ from the USA to other countries.

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Old 12-09-2010, 06:25 PM
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Oh you have opened a can of worms now! Don't tread on their religion!
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2010, 08:05 PM
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Oh, you discovered me.
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Old 12-10-2010, 10:53 AM
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Some people can hide from the truth for so long that they forget what it looks like.

Do you have any real evidence to support your claims ?

The rest of the world has long since left your form of denial, maybe its time you put on a new pair of glasses.

Use your own ideas, "follow the money" who is losing money, who is funding climate change denial ?

Every natural system on the planet is in decline.

We are in the middle of a mass extinction.

Lands are flooding due to polar ice melts.

The acidity of the ocean is rising.

Permafrost is melting where it never has and releasing trapped methane.

The global average temperature has risen.

I am sorry, but I tend to believe in science, not speculation.
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Old 12-10-2010, 11:39 AM
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Rich,
I believe you sincerley believe what you think is science.
I think you are sincerely mistaken.
In any event, it is not the imminent catastrophe that the alarmists would have us believe. If their science was right, we would already be under water.

If the science is right, why the need for governmental coercion.
Let the facts speak for themselves.
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Old 12-10-2010, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
Rich,

If the science is right, why the need for governmental coercion.
Let the facts speak for themselves.
Just what exactly do you think the "facts" are?

- Peter.
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  #7  
Old 12-10-2010, 03:48 PM
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Just what exactly do you think the "facts" are?

- Peter.
I am not sure.
The data has been so thoroughly manipulated that we may never know.
My manipulation, I mean not only "fudging" it to make it appear to conform to the theory, but also the subtle stuff like temperature recording stations that were rural, now are urban because of urban sprawl. So the data may well show a local temp increase, but in some cases that is due to the local environment changes.
Now, they say the glaciers are growing, and have been.

I am old enough to remember the dire warnings of the coming ice age in the the 1960s. The scientists were just as sure then, as the MMGW crowd is now that the threat was real and imminent. Seeing that they were wrong--according to the MMGW advocates, makes me more critical, and less willing to accept whatever is the latest scientific pronouncement. Combine that skepticism with the further skepticism that results from seeing the very close relationship between funding from government sources, and the correlation of the research with what that government wants everyone to believe.

I would love to see an open, peer-reviewed, transparent, public debate and see what comes out. Transparency is not what the MMGW crowd is all about.
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:09 PM
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Who stands to loose the most money ?

Oil companies.

Who pours millions into climate change denial ?

Oil companies.

Who is feeding you a line of horse pucky ?

Oil companies, and government officials that have been paid off.

Who is more transparent, oil companies or scientists ?

seems like a no brainer to me.

Every nation has joined the keyoto protocol except the US.

Do you honestly believe you know better than the rest of the world ?????
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS Fowler View Post
I am not sure.
The data has been so thoroughly manipulated that we may never know.
My manipulation, I mean not only "fudging" it to make it appear to conform to the theory, but also the subtle stuff like temperature recording stations that were rural, now are urban because of urban sprawl. So the data may well show a local temp increase, but in some cases that is due to the local environment changes.
Now, they say the glaciers are growing, and have been.

I am old enough to remember the dire warnings of the coming ice age in the the 1960s. The scientists were just as sure then, as the MMGW crowd is now that the threat was real and imminent. Seeing that they were wrong--according to the MMGW advocates, makes me more critical, and less willing to accept whatever is the latest scientific pronouncement. Combine that skepticism with the further skepticism that results from seeing the very close relationship between funding from government sources, and the correlation of the research with what that government wants everyone to believe.

I would love to see an open, peer-reviewed, transparent, public debate and see what comes out. Transparency is not what the MMGW crowd is all about.
I thought you were from LA--- Ever looked up when you were there?
Or ever looked down while flying into the "dirty layer of cotten wadding"???
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Old 12-10-2010, 06:14 PM
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Given all the other environmental consequences of humankind (lead, mercury, radioactivity, fertilizer induced dead zones) . . . if we haven't manage to influence climate change, it must be a testament to the resiliency of that system, or that we just aren't trying hard enough.
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Old 12-10-2010, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichC View Post
Who stands to loose the most money ?



Every nation has joined the keyoto protocol except the US.

Do you honestly believe you know better than the rest of the world ?????
I KNOE my motives. I suspect the motives of the rest of the world when it means I pay and they profit. Oh, anmy the way, under-developed countries can still pollute to their hearts content. Yeah, that really speaks to the imminent threat.

Its a money grab.
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Old 12-10-2010, 07:51 PM
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I thought you were from LA--- Ever looked up when you were there?
Or ever looked down while flying into the "dirty layer of cotten wadding"???
Not from LA, nor ever been there.

I have seen smog. Are you saying that smog= MMGW?
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Old 12-10-2010, 07:52 PM
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Given all the other environmental consequences of humankind (lead, mercury, radioactivity, fertilizer induced dead zones) . . . if we haven't manage to influence climate change, it must be a testament to the resiliency of that system, or that we just aren't trying hard enough.
Or that the systems are far more complex and inter-related than we imagine.
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Old 12-10-2010, 09:06 PM
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The only facts of the debate are as follows.
1) From chemistry we learn that the pollutants derived from industrial civilization are greenhouse gases.

2) From Astronomy we learn that with runaway greenhouse effects the planet fries, aka Venus.

3) From geology we learn that earth's climate has undergone massive climate fluctuations many times over it's history.

4) During the time of industrial civilization wherein we were able to measure temperature the overall trend has been up.

Everything that is postulated from these facts is mere conjecture. Models develop as more data comes to light and is considered in different ways or as ones tools such as computers become more powerful etc. At this stage there is no doubt that climate change has often occurred in the past, in some cases the quite recent past. But the significance of MMGW in the earths climate cannot be definitively shown yet.

So this is not something that can be "proved" or "disproved" in the sense of a court of law, or a science experiment. The earth itself IS the experiment and we may well find out that we have indeed screwed ourselves. Problem is by the time we have definitive evidence for that it will probably be far too late.

To dismiss the warnings about MMGW as unfounded is as reckless as to pretend we know for a fact what is really going on. The political bickering that goes on around this is irellevant to the central problem.

- Peter.
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Old 12-10-2010, 09:07 PM
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The Gore Effect

http://theweek.com/article/index/210181/irony-alert-the-unusually-chilly-global-warming-summit

It seems the folks at the big warmer GTG in Cancun are freezing their fuzzy buns off.......

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