Popular Mechanics Chevy Volt Range Tests - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

retmil46 · #1 01-07-2011, 02:49 AM

Electric range testing and MPG figures for the Chevy Volt -

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/electric/chevy-volt-range-tests

All that development time and money, and it still gets it's butt kicked mileage-wise by either a Toyota Prius or Honda Insight or Civic Hybrid.

I love the line about how "the EPA hasn't figured out how to rate it's fuel economy". Translation - "we haven't figured out a convincing line of BS that the general public will swallow and will make this dog look like a good deal".

Recharge time of 11 hours on 120V, or 5 to 6 hours on 240V. Welcome to the wonderful world of electric vehicles my friends - I've been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Wanna take bets as to how many owners will just simply blow off plugging the bloody thing in and just keep dumping gas in the tank?

75Sv1 · #2 01-07-2011, 07:47 AM

I think overall, it meets its design specs. Roughly 33 miles on a charge. It really does depend on how they drove it. 33 mpg is OK, not great but OK. I would say it comes down to the initial cost and operating cost. I don't its size, but I would gues a compact car. So probably compare it to a Ford Fiesta, Toyota Corolla, Matrix etc. They get 41 mpg highway, maybe a bit better. I think that class of car sells for $12K to $16K. So, $15K for gas, then the interst on that over 5 years. I calculate roughly $1200 in gas per year, based on 15K miles.
So, I think it is a bit of a novelty at the moment. Al technology starts at a high $ value. ABS, airbags, computers etc. Scale of economy, improved production techniques etc. should bring the cost down. So time will tell. I like the approach they took with the Volt.
Tom

pawoSD · #3 01-07-2011, 08:53 AM

A car that gets 30+ miles per charge would just about eliminate my need for oil-based fuels for my normal driving....same for my wife.

One of my uncles converted a ford focus to electric....it can go about 40-50 miles on a charge in the winter, with a heater/lights on etc. Total cost of the project was roughly $11k....including buying the running driving Focus to begin with. It fully charges in about 6 hours on 120V I believe....less if it is not drained most of the way. If he added a generator like the Volt....it'd probably only add another $1500 to the car's cost....and would give much longer range. Pretty bad that you can build a car superior to the volt yourself for 1/2 the price. My awesome idea is to electric convert a W123....with mega size equipment.....more batteries.....bigger motor mounted underneath to the driveshaft to take the place of the tranny, batteries mounted in the front & rear to balance the weight.....perhaps a generator too if intended for long range ability....That'd be sweeet. And there's so much more room to work with in a W123 compared to a focus.

75Sv1 · #4 01-07-2011, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

A car that gets 30+ miles per charge would just about eliminate my need for oil-based fuels for my normal driving....same for my wife.

One of my uncles converted a ford focus to electric....it can go about 40-50 miles on a charge in the winter, with a heater/lights on etc. Total cost of the project was roughly $11k....including buying the running driving Focus to begin with. It fully charges in about 6 hours on 120V I believe....less if it is not drained most of the way. If he added a generator like the Volt....it'd probably only add another $1500 to the car's cost....and would give much longer range. Pretty bad that you can build a car superior to the volt yourself for 1/2 the price. My awesome idea is to electric convert a W123....with mega size equipment.....more batteries.....bigger motor mounted underneath to the driveshaft to take the place of the tranny, batteries mounted in the front & rear to balance the weight.....perhaps a generator too if intended for long range ability....That'd be sweeet. And there's so much more room to work with in a W123 compared to a focus.

Mother Earth sells plans to convert an Opel GT to something simular to the Volt. Yes, you can convert something for cheaper, but did you pay yourself for the time it took. Also, you don't have the added warranty, and other cost.
Tom

Txjake · #5 01-07-2011, 09:53 AM

Noticed they didnt use the HVAC much, if at all. I imagine in a real world test, ie the south in August, the northeast in January, the range would be a whole 'nother deal. Just doesnt work out for me, dollar wise. I'd rather buy a Suzuki or a small Toyota if all I was worried about is fuel mileage. Hell, my Jag V8 averages 23-24 on highway trips: that's with the AC going and traveling around 70-75.

EVs and such still to me fall in the realm of toy cars or trendy, but not completely useful items. Maybe one day, the industry will figure out something that works, maybe hydrogen or whatever. Bottom line is Americans, most Americans, live a long way from where they work, where they shop, where they go for fun. They have stuff, and kids, with more stuff. They need a vehicle that will accomodate that. Anything that is going to be really workable is going to have to fit that criteria, no matter how much some urban planner wants to stuff everybody into little eggs.

I have no desire to be like the europeans stuffed into tiny cars, trundling to somewhere.

#6 01-07-2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Txjake

EVs and such still to me fall in the realm of toy cars or trendy, but not completely useful items. Maybe one day, the industry will figure out something that works, maybe hydrogen or whatever. Bottom line is Americans, most Americans, live a long way from where they work, where they shop, where they go for fun. They have stuff, and kids, with more stuff. They need a vehicle that will accomodate that. Anything that is going to be really workable is going to have to fit that criteria, no matter how much some urban planner wants to stuff everybody into little eggs.

Unfortunately, that is true. The only way to fix it will be to increase the cost of fuel significantly and wait about a decade for americans to figure up it's not going back down. The geezers will be annoyed, but the next generation will just adjust their lifestyle to the reality that energy is expensive. The longer you wait, the longer it will take.

75Sv1 · #7 01-07-2011, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Unfortunately, that is true. The only way to fix it will be to increase the cost of fuel significantly and wait about a decade for americans to figure up it's not going back down. The geezers will be annoyed, but the next generation will just adjust their lifestyle to the reality that energy is expensive. The longer you wait, the longer it will take.

"Noticed they didnt use the HVAC much, if at all. I imagine in a real world test, ie the south in August, the northeast in January, the range would be a whole 'nother deal. Just doesnt work out for me, dollar wise. I'd rather buy a Suzuki or a small Toyota if all I was worried about is fuel mileage. Hell, my Jag V8 averages 23-24 on highway trips: that's with the AC going and traveling around 70-75.

EVs and such still to me fall in the realm of toy cars or trendy, but not completely useful items. Maybe one day, the industry will figure out something that works, maybe hydrogen or whatever. Bottom line is Americans, most Americans, live a long way from where they work, where they shop, where they go for fun. They have stuff, and kids, with more stuff. They need a vehicle that will accomodate that. Anything that is going to be really workable is going to have to fit that criteria, no matter how much some urban planner wants to stuff everybody into little eggs.

I have no desire to be like the europeans stuffed into tiny cars, trundling to somewhere. "

Yes, American will resist this change. I see the change coming fro0m two fronts. They are basically, from the same source though. First, tighter demand for petroleum resources. Weather 'peak Oil' or not, other countries are competing for the worlds supply. The other is these same countries are becoming more affluent, and a larger manufacturing base. IE at what point does the US standarnd of living decline? So, less goods for the US, and less need for huge vehicles to haul around a bunch of kids and their stuff.
I also wonder is a deisle engine would be a better fit for this platform. The generation of electricity, would be at a constant RPM. I think a better match for a deisel motor than a gas motor. Trains use this same basic design structure.
Tom

retmil46 · #8 01-07-2011, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

One of my uncles converted a ford focus to electric....it can go about 40-50 miles on a charge in the winter, with a heater/lights on etc. Total cost of the project was roughly $11k....including buying the running driving Focus to begin with. It fully charges in about 6 hours on 120V I believe....less if it is not drained most of the way. If he added a generator like the Volt....it'd probably only add another $1500 to the car's cost....and would give much longer range. Pretty bad that you can build a car superior to the volt yourself for 1/2 the price.

Dude, no disrespect, but I think your uncle is exaggerating just a tad.

Look, I own an electric pickup (81 Ford Courier/Mazda B2000) that was converted new by Jet Industries in Austin TX, and I picked it up used in WA state back in '93. By 2000, I'd upgraded nearly everything to what could be considered hobbyist state-of-the-art then, and spent a year and a half using it to commute to work. Before I got tired of working with it, I spent over 10 plus years modifying, maintaining, and driving it.

From the price quoted, your uncle had to use lead acid batteries, and from the size and weight carrying abilties of a Focus, even the wagon version, he had to be using 12 V marine batteries. Unless he drove no faster that 35 to 45 mph everywhere he went, there is no way he could have gotten 40 to 50 miles range on a single series string of 12 V batteries - they just don't have the amp hour capacity - the best small car conversions using 12 V batteries I saw during my EV years had a realistic range of about 30 miles. If he did use 6 V golf cart batteries, then he had to be running a low voltage system (ie, 96 V or less) and I'd wager a good part of the car's interior was taken up by batteries - essentially it ended up being a two-seater.

By way of comparison, my pickup had a curb weight of little over 2000 lbs as built by Ford/Mazda. Even with all the EV tips and tricks in the book, to RELIABLY get even a 40 mile range at highway speeds took a series string of twenty 6 V golf cart batteries at 120 V, that weighed upwards of 1400 lbs - essentially 3/4 of a ton of batteries - essentially I had to nearly DOUBLE the weight of the vehicle to get even a 40 mile range.

40 to 50 miles in summer? A long stretch, but not entirely outside the realm of possibility without seeing the car first hand. 40 to 50 miles in winter, ie, freezing temps? Gotta throw the BS flag on that one - unless his batteries were in insulated and temp-controlled enclosures - which would take up even more space and weight - then he would be losing HALF his range in anything close to freezing temps - been there, done that.

And unless he was using a propane or diesel fired cabin heater, electric heat would cut even further into his winter range. Think it's fun trying to stay warm on a cold winter's morning until your old MB diesel heats up? Try doing it in a converted EV with only a 1500 watt ceramic heating element from one of those $30 cube floor heaters - you discover in short order that modern vehicles are piss-poor when it comes to insulation and heat-holding ability.

6 hour recharge on 120 V doesn't jive with 40 miles range - the better converted EV's I saw in my years would average 4 miles/kilowatthour (kwh), or 10 kwh to do 40 miles - even with the most efficient charger out there available to the hobbyist, there's no way you can pull 10 kwh out of a 120 V 15 amp outlet in 6 hours - off of 240 V, yes, that's in line with my own experience.

The recharge times listed for the Volt - 11 hours for 120 V, and 5 to 6 hours off of 240 V - and the ranges PM was able to get on battery power - leads me to believe they've got a battery pack with 10 kwh or less useable capacity, and likely lead acid batteries to boot. What they're describing is so close in operating and charging characteristics to my pickup with 120 V of 6 V golf cart batteries, a 30 hp DC series motor, and a forklift motor controller, it isn't funny.

Not knocking your uncle by any means - all EV'ers tend to exaggerate and brag a little about what their vehicles can do - heck, I was guilty of it myself - the old saying that there's none so devout as the converted - for several years I was one of the converted myself when it came to EV's and hybrids - it took a couple years of real-world commuting experience with an EV to "deprogram" me.

But your last sentence is still spot on - that for around 10 grand or so you could convert a suitable existing vehicle on your own and get just as good electric performance and range as the Volt. And that just goes to show that the main limiting factor on electrics and hybrids is STILL the batteries.

aklim · #9 01-07-2011, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

A car that gets 30+ miles per charge would just about eliminate my need for oil-based fuels for my normal driving....same for my wife.

Pretty bad that you can build a car superior to the volt yourself for 1/2 the price.

My awesome idea is to electric convert a W123....with mega size equipment.....more batteries.....bigger motor mounted underneath to the driveshaft to take the place of the tranny, batteries mounted in the front & rear to balance the weight.....perhaps a generator too if intended for long range ability....That'd be sweeet. And there's so much more room to work with in a W123 compared to a focus.

I don't know. Would you feel comfortable with a car that has a range of 30 mpg and then shuts down? Would you care to try a real world test. Zero out your trip meter and when it hits 30, stop where you are and walk home. Around here, AAA doesn't charge your battery. This isn't US Cellular where you can go to a shop and do a battery swap and have a charged battery for your phone.

Parts cost or actual cost? Is that just parts or does he consider labor and effort to design the system, chase around for parts, etc, etc? When I want to do a calculation on how much maintenance a car will cost me, I include my work at mechanic hours in the calculation.

Also there would be a lot more weight, right?

aklim · #10 01-07-2011, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Unfortunately, that is true. The only way to fix it will be to increase the cost of fuel significantly and wait about a decade for americans to figure up it's not going back down. The geezers will be annoyed, but the next generation will just adjust their lifestyle to the reality that energy is expensive. The longer you wait, the longer it will take.

But how will that overcome geography? This is like the moronic states that have a Pedestrian Right set of rules. Fine, just note that the laws of physics trumps the laws of man any day. All it does is take us back 100 years where you were born in this town and you work in this town and you die in this town. That and the govt gets huge bucks in the process.

#11 01-07-2011, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

But how will that overcome geography? This is like the moronic states that have a Pedestrian Right set of rules. Fine, just note that the laws of physics trumps the laws of man any day. All it does is take us back 100 years where you were born in this town and you work in this town and you die in this town. That and the govt gets huge bucks in the process.

It won't work for everyone, an those who choose to live far from their work will pay the price. Many more people could telecommute, mass transient could be much better in most areas, and hardly anyone needs to drive an F350 to pick up their kids from school. My point was, as long as fuel is ridiculously cheap in the US nothing will change.

retmil46 · #12 01-07-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

It won't work for everyone, an those who choose to live far from their work will pay the price. Many more people could telecommute, mass transient could be much better in most areas, and hardly anyone needs to drive an F350 to pick up their kids from school. My point was, as long as fuel is ridiculously cheap in the US nothing will change.

What about those that don't have a choice, for whatever reason, as to how far they have to commute, or work in an occupation where there is no choice but to be physically present on the jobsite?

As far as their individual choice of vehicles, ie F350, no argument there.

#13 01-07-2011, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

What about those that don't have a choice, for whatever reason, as to how far they have to commute, or work in an occupation where there is no choice but to be physically present on the jobsite?

As far as their individual choice of vehicles, ie F350, no argument there.

Everyone has a choice. If fuel costs $6/gallon and someone wants me to be at a job site 100 miles away, they will pay me accordingly or I will find someplace else to work. In other words, the market will sort itself out.

aklim · #14 01-07-2011, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

It won't work for everyone, an those who choose to live far from their work will pay the price.

Many more people could telecommute,

mass transient could be much better in most areas,

and hardly anyone needs to drive an F350 to pick up their kids from school.

My point was, as long as fuel is ridiculously cheap in the US nothing will change.

It's not always that easy. If you live in a large enough city, maybe. You can't always dictate the job will be in that area. Short of living in an RV and move from place to place assuming you are the only one that works. In this economy, we have to take a job where we can. I can't sit on my ass and demand that a job miracle itself within 10 miles of my location. But lets say it did. What if my wife loses her job and has to commute? Your european model works for dense areas. A lot of our areas are not that dense.

Telecommuting isn't a cure-all either. It requires a high amount of trust in the employee and the employee has to be disciplined. Would you want your doctor to telecommute with you and be treating you from his bathtub? For certain things, it works. Many things, it won't.

That is also the hard part. 2 things come to mind. Govt curfew and you have to give up convenience.

True. However, if that is the only vehicle you have that does other things, would it pay to simply buy several vehicles to save a few bucks but more headaches? My Excursion, for instance is my grocery getter. It is also my RV hauler, my 2nd car, dog carrier, bad winter day car, etc, etc. How many vehicles would I need for all of that?

Only way to fix what you want is for Big Brother to "guide" change. I prefer to leave Big Brother there and not have him guide anything lest I find that he has guided me into the barrel with a hole in it and everyday becomes my turn in the barrel.

aklim · #15 01-07-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Everyone has a choice. If fuel costs $6/gallon and someone wants me to be at a job site 100 miles away, they will pay me accordingly or I will find someplace else to work. In other words, the market will sort itself out.

Absolutely. But what will it sort out to be in the end? Will we be better off or worse off? We have to look at an overall picture. A gain in one end (fuel use) isn't a gain if we take it in the shorts every day.