Peugeot start selling Diesel Hybrid in Europe - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Pavka007 · #1 01-10-2011, 03:00 PM

This is some serious challenge to Toyota and Honda Hybrids returning 74 MPG (61MPG US). However I don't believe that we will ever see it here

http://www.peugeot.co.uk/vehicles/peugeot-car-range/peugeot-3008-hybrid4/

retmil46 · #2 01-10-2011, 04:12 PM

Unfortunately, I think you're right. We're supposed to drive ethanol-powered hybrids or electrics in this country.

Interesting though, way back when Clinton held the PNGV program, all of the Big 3 came up with the same answer - a diesel hybrid.

If anyone in the EPA or government had an ounce of sense, they'd simply copy Euro 5 emissions specs from Europe (which are little removed from our own), and we'd have a plethora of diesel options to choose from - in most cases, the very same models you see on the road now, but with a diesel.

But from what I've seen over the past 15 years or so, and speaking personally with a couple people who were involved with helping the EPA draft different versions of diesel emission requirements, the EPA (with CARB leading the way) isn't interested in clean diesels - they want to drive them off the road altogether - and will keep ratcheting the requirements even tighter every time the manufacturers manage to meet the latest set of standards. Their aim seems to be to make a diesel so expensive to manufacture, maintain and operate that diesels will simply die off on their own

Pavka007 · #3 01-10-2011, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

Unfortunately, I think you're right. We're supposed to drive ethanol-powered hybrids or electrics in this country.

Interesting though, way back when Clinton held the PNGV program, all of the Big 3 came up with the same answer - a diesel hybrid.

If anyone in the EPA or government had an ounce of sense, they'd simply copy Euro 5 emissions specs from Europe (which are little removed from our own), and we'd have a plethora of diesel options to choose from - in most cases, the very same models you see on the road now, but with a diesel.

But from what I've seen over the past 15 years or so, and speaking personally with a couple people who were involved with helping the EPA draft different versions of diesel emission requirements, the EPA (with CARB leading the way) isn't interested in clean diesels - they want to drive them off the road altogether - and will keep ratcheting the requirements even tighter every time the manufacturers manage to meet the latest set of standards. Their aim seems to be to make a diesel so expensive to manufacture, maintain and operate that diesels will simply die off on their own

Well this is beyond me as well. Back in the UK many Diesels are actually with lower road taxes because they are cleaner than gas engines. VW Polo 1.4 TDI is with £30 pounds road tax for a year, the equivalent Polo with 1.4 petrol engine is £90 pounds per year road tax. Road Tax system in the UK is based on CO2 emission readings of the vehicles.

tonkovich · #4 01-10-2011, 04:41 PM

kind of makes that gm / chevy volt thing look pitiful.

SwampYankee · #5 01-10-2011, 04:52 PM

While I'm not sold on hybrids, a diesel-electric would make more sense than a gas-electric (efficiency-wise).

lutzTD · #6 01-10-2011, 05:05 PM

not surprising standard diesels have been getting 40ish for decades. and diesle electric locomotives should be a real indication of possible efficiencies. Seems like they should create a standard that only looks at net emissions rather than instantaneous emissions.

rscurtis · #7 01-10-2011, 05:38 PM

Until several years ago, the Economic Punishment Agency could be blamed for the lack of European diesels in this country. Meeting the standards today is no longer an issue, albeit expensive, but less so that hybrids.

There are three issues today that I see. First, domestic manufacturers, having just escaped with their lives, are reluctant to experiment at this point. Second, due to the country's general deficiencies in math and science, diesel is summarily dismissed by many due to its slightly higher cost because of the inability by many to see that the cost variance is overshadowed by the use variance. Third, manufacturers have hyped hybrids to the nth degree, despite their dismal advantages in some applications, like the 21 MPG Chevy half-ton.

Hatterasguy · #8 01-10-2011, 05:48 PM

The EPA and card are trying to outlaw diesels. Also the oil companies price diesel fuel so much higher its not worth it.

I suspect this is on purpose, they just want trucking companies to use it since they will simply pass the cost on to the end user. That way the oil companies can have a product with higher margins than gas.

#9 01-10-2011, 05:54 PM

I think the answer is simpler; it all has to do with the price of fuel v. the cost of the vehicle:

1. In the US the cost of diesel is similar to the cost of gasoline, so there is very little incentive to buy any diesel car at a premium price.

2. The overall cost of fuel is cheap in the US, so the incentive to buy any high mileage car at a premium price is reduced.

3. There is even less incentive to pay for a diesel hybrid, the payback would be too slow compared to a similar convectional car. We can't even get people to stop driving SUVs at these fuel prices.

Fulcrum525 · #10 01-10-2011, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis

Until several years ago, the Economic Punishment Agency could be blamed for the lack of European diesels in this country.

LaRondo · #11 01-10-2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

The EPA and card are trying to outlaw diesels. Also the oil companies price diesel fuel so much higher its not worth it.

I suspect this is on purpose, they just want trucking companies to use it since they will simply pass the cost on to the end user. That way the oil companies can have a product with higher margins than gas.

That's a very good observation. Unfortunately, this trend is in direct opposition to what is commonly proclaimed being a "free market system".

It's a very radical development in the direction of creating Monopolies.
(the plural version of monopoly is actually a paradox)

Every concievable resource should be considered and opened for manufacturing and infrastrucural development. We all know this would spike competition, create opportunity and most of all will benefit the consumer, which is us.

At the same token they outlaw and hinder the development of CNG, by implemanting completely irrational legal hurdels to develop the technology, vehicle conversion and supplier network.

It's sad to see this country developing so backwards.

LaRondo · #12 01-10-2011, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

I think the answer is simpler; it all has to do with the price of fuel v. the cost of the vehicle:

1. In the US the cost of diesel is similar to the cost of gasoline, so there is very little incentive to buy any diesel car at a premium price.

2. The overall cost of fuel is cheap in the US, so the incentive to buy any high mileage car at a premium price is reduced.

3. There is even less incentive to pay for a diesel hybrid, the payback would be too slow compared to a similar convectional car. We can't even get people to stop driving SUVs at these fuel prices.

Your suggestion only applies to the effect of the market being manipulated achieving exactly what you are describing.

retmil46 · #13 01-10-2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

The EPA and card are trying to outlaw diesels. Also the oil companies price diesel fuel so much higher its not worth it.

I suspect this is on purpose, they just want trucking companies to use it since they will simply pass the cost on to the end user. That way the oil companies can have a product with higher margins than gas.

Guess you haven't heard CARB's latest bright idea - that ALL OTR trucks operating in the state (at least those registered in CA, possibly extending to any that so much as set foot in the state) have to be upgaded to meet 2007 emissions, regardless of year of manufacture.

There for a while, they were even contemplating mandating that all vehilces be painted white or another refllective color - the logic being the A/C wouldn't have to work as hard and thus reduce emissions.

But the all time topper was a few years ago, when they wanted to mandate that all cruise and merchant ship within 200 miles of the CA coastline had to burn ULSD instead of the bunker fuel their engines were designed for. They basically got laughed out of court on that one, but did mandate that any ship docked in a CA port either has to burn ULSD in their generators or use shore power exclusively.

Don't see things getting any better now that Gov Moonbeam is back in office.

#14 01-10-2011, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Your suggestion only applies to the effect of the market being manipulated achieving exactly what you are describing.

Agreed, if we manipulated the market so diesel cost $4 and gasoline cost $6, you could sell a ton of 50mpg diesel hybrids for $30-40k.

75Sv1 · #15 01-11-2011, 07:45 AM

Part of the problem is that the US imports diesel fuel. We don't have a dedicated refinery. It takes time to switch over to deisel, so lost revenue. Most of our refineries are over 20 years old. I think there is one in St. Louis that was just built. So since the US dollar is weak against other currencies, deisel becomes a premium fuel.
I get about 28 mpg in my 240D. So, it is more economical to drive my Ford Contour, especially on long trips. There are gas gars that get better milage. Also, deisels cost more to manufacture. The emmisions make that even more so. I think roughly 1/3 the price of a deisel motor is just for the emmisions.
True that the Euro emmisions spec regualt CO2 over NOx. So diesels have an easier time meeting their emmisions. I also don't hear as much about small cars as say a few years ago when gas was $4/gal. People have adjusted to $3/gal.
I do think that biodiesel is making some strides. I see the main player as the US military. They are specing that their vehicles run on some percentage of bioD. It keeps them from relieing on unreliable sources.
Also, CNG is a contender. There have been some comercial offerings over the years. The infastructure isn't developed except in a few states. The home recharge systems though are a boost. Still, simular to electrics, limited range, long recharge time (at home). Still, not as bad as electrics in range. I think a little cheaper than gas. I do think that there will be some push towards CNG. Mainly, the discovery of large gas fields in PA, the Texas-ArKansas area and Utah.
Tom