Clean Diesel Funding Eliminated - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

retmil46 · #1 02-19-2011, 03:39 PM

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2011/02/obama-cuts-funding-to-clean-diesel-fuel-cell-vehicles.html

What have we discussed in other threads about the government picking winners and losers in the marketplace?

Looks like Congress, the EPA, and Archers Daniels Midland have decided that we should all be driving ethanol powered hybrids.

I'm already hearing reports from friends back in NC, with it's state-mandated use of ethanol, that they're now having fuel-related problems with their pre-2006 vehicles. My friend in Charlotte is now in the position of adding Power Service to his 2005 Jeep CRD, and Stabil to his gasser 2002 Jeep Liberty. He's already had to replace all the fuel-related hoses on the 02 due to the ethanol degrading them.

SwampYankee · #2 02-19-2011, 03:52 PM

Idiots.

TnBob · #3 02-19-2011, 04:01 PM

The elected smucks in DC had better get their collective heads out of that place where the sun doesnt shine very, very soon.

Lest anyone is unaware our debt went from $5.4 trillion on 2006 to $14.3 trillion in 2010. Totally unacceptable.

retmil46 · #4 02-19-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

Idiots.

X2.

They can have my two diesels when they pry them out of my cold dead hands.

And it's not like the funding for clean diesel and fuel cell research is going back into the kitty - it's just being transferred over to hybrids and electrics.

And the $7500 tax credit they'd get in April when filing their income tax, is now going to be given to them when they buy the vehicle - essentially $7500 "cash back" on the spot. Cash For Clunkers - The Sequel.

Pooka · #5 02-19-2011, 08:14 PM

I think the $7500 is only on the Chevy Volt.

Are there other cars that qualify?

Pooka · #6 02-19-2011, 08:25 PM

The rebates on Hybrid cars that G. W. Bush signed into law have expired. That program is over. At one time they were supposed to have been as high as $4500 a car but I think $3500 was the real number.

An electric car can receive a rebate at the time of purchase. The amount varies from $2500 to $7500 depending on the voltage of the cars' motor. The car must have a system of at least 4 kv to qualify.

The max is for the Chevy Volt at 16 kv which is $7500. There is some discussion in California of a $5000 state rebate on a 16 kv car but I don't think that has become final.

So far the only cars I can find that qualify are the Chevy Volt and the Nissan Leaf. Critics of the Leaf like to point out that sales in 2010 were about ten cars. The fact that the rebates did not go into effect until 2011 might have had something to do with that.

rscurtis · #7 02-19-2011, 08:39 PM

As I understand it, this funding was for the retrofit of catalysts and DPF's to engines that didn't originally have them. It has nothing to do with the current crop of clean diesel engines. According to the Diesel Technology Forum, for every $ spent on the DERA, there was a $13 benefit in reduced health issues.

retmil is correct, this is another form of choosing winners and losers. The only good thing here was the end of funding for fuel cells, they are nothing more than a black hole.

roflwaffle · #8 02-19-2011, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pooka

The max is for the Chevy Volt at 16 kv which is $7500. There is some discussion in California of a $5000 state rebate on a 16 kv car but I don't think that has become final.

It's final IIRC, but the Volt doesn't qualify because the manufacturer also has to provide a 10 year/150k mile warranty on the hybrid stuff, and GM is only offering 10 years/100k for now.

engatwork · #9 02-20-2011, 07:54 AM

I thought we already had plenty of plug in's in the way of GOLF CARTS

. In the small community I live in you can get all around town on a golf cart without any issues and some people do.

POS · #10 02-20-2011, 09:06 AM

I certainly saw hydrogen stations being implemented at current fuel stations as the best long-term solution to our fuel problems; electric cars are a complete waste due to (1) range (which may be fixed over time) and (2) the fact that you need massive energy sources to create that electricity. Cripes, the temps got down to 25 degrees here in Texas and they started rolling blackouts - how in the hell are we NOT going to have blackouts when it gets cold and everyone runs to plug in their stupid electric cars? Once again, our wonderfully idiotic politicians want to screw with the marketplace to make someone happy.

retmil46 · #11 02-20-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by POS

I certainly saw hydrogen stations being implemented at current fuel stations as the best long-term solution to our fuel problems; electric cars are a complete waste due to (1) range (which may be fixed over time) and (2) the fact that you need massive energy sources to create that electricity.

Ummm, same problem with hydrogen as (2) above.

Hydrogen is not an energy SOURCE, but an energy STORAGE medium. Hydrogen naturally bonds with oxygen to form water. You can't drill a hydrogen well, a la natural gas - you have to disassociate water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen - and that takes energy in itself.

Most common method of doing this? Electrolysis - ie, electricity. And if I'm remembering my HS chemistry correctly, it takes twice as much energy to disassociate water into hydrogen and oxygen using this method, than what you get out of a fuel cell when you allow them to recombine.

You can reform natural gas and break it down to produce hydrogen - but in the process you emit carbon, a no-no with Al Gore's crowd these days, and essentially throw away half the energy initially contained in the natural gas - not to mention this process requires some type of energy input as well. Better off just burning the natural gas as is - or processing it into synthetic diesel fuel.

Not to mention, barring some unforseen breakthrough, fuel cells require expensive catalyst metals to work properly - ie, they're too expensive to mass produce in the numbers required to replace internal combustion engines.

You could just about make the same joke about fuel-cell powered cars that researchers make about nuclear fusion - "Fusion is the energy source of the future - and always will be".

SwampYankee · #12 02-20-2011, 12:06 PM

The switch to clean diesel requires virtually no change in behavior for the majority of the driving public. The biggest change is the 5-7 second glow/pre-warm delay. With that "inconvenience" comes a 20-30% reduction in oil consumption by simply changing fuel type.

roflwaffle · #13 02-20-2011, 12:28 PM

The same goes for hybrids, but most people want lower initial cost and faster acceleration than they want lower fuel bills.