I mean rationally and without name-calling?

Lots of outside interests flooding the state.
Does anyone KNOW what the tax-paying citizens of Wisconsin want? One can suppose that, since they elected this republican governor and legislature, that they wanted him to make cuts.
Is anyone who is on the side of the teacher's union suggesting alternative ways to balance the budget? Are they workable?
I hear the accusation that this is just an attack on unions, and that is why unions from all over are involved. Is that accusation justified? AFAIK, the governor's Bill allows the union and even allows for raises, but limits them to the CPI. Seems reasonable to me for a state that is out of money. The rhetoric seems too full of hyperbole to be accurate.

It seems to me that Wisconsin might be the pattern. MANY states are in similar predicaments--spending is way above revenues, and they cannot simply print money.


Maybe the larger question is, should public sector unions be allowed? After all, the public sector employees have job security that people in the private sector cannot even dream about. They also have great pay and benefits, and have not yet had the belt-tightening that the private sector has endured, not to mention pretty good working conditions.
I though most public-sector unions were forbidden from striking. This may be a "sick out" but it sure looks like an illegal strike. Can't they get an injunction against the leadership?

I remember just 2 short years ago as the democrats in DC promised to " ram health care down our throats" that their defense was , " Elections have ramifications"
Seems like the same thing could be said to the teachers of Wisconsin.

As you can tell, my initial sentiments are with the governor, but I am willing to listen to coherent arguments from the opposing side.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

You must be either a racist or a homophobe or a nazi. Or maybe the trifecta? Anyway, Bringing up stuff like that wil get you branded.

Wait for it.....

Take note of this; the cost to the state annually per teacher-recipient in Wisconsin is $22,000.00 per year in healthcare costs. That's what it's costing Wisconsin right now.

Here's another place for the Tea Party minded American voters to zero-in on and counter-demonstrate - the unions that are running our country into the ground financially won't last. We're broke already.

Wisconsin can't afford to pay $22,000.00 annually per worker in the upside-down fantasy of what they're costing the state.

They are so outmatched in numbers by the typical American Tea Party voter, that they really should not have been so foolish as to call attention to their unaffordable tax-dollars they're getting....... This gives we the voter another target to be watchful and vigilant over.

The Tea Party is on the move here - which is what happened Saturday in Wisconsin. Democracy will prevail!

Cuts will be made or 10000 state employees lose their jobs. Simple math, really.

How much does the private sector pay for their pension plans, and how much does a state employee pay for their pension plans? Do that research, and align them. The ability to fire a ****ty employee would be a great addition to everything.

~Nate

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95 Honda Shadow ACE 1100.
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2012 Escape, 'hunter" (5 sp 4cyl)

One may assume that’s what the tax payers/voters who voted for Republicans wanted, but not all tax payers/voters. It would also be safe to assume the majority of the protesters didn’t vote for the Republicans.

The minority who lost the election didn’t forfeit their right to speak out or protest.

This has national interest because it addresses the old conflict between the pubic and private sectors.

Elections matter to the extent that civil rights are not violated; and all proposals by the majority are subject to criticism by the general public – no one has a monopoly on being right.

On the one hand you ask for rational discussion yet post the above, hardly consistent. No Democrats stated anything was to be ‘rammed down our throats,’ and opponents of the ACA were certainly allowed to voice and demonstrate their displeasure, just as the protesters in Wisconsin are doing now.

I'm sure the majority of Wisconsin voters who voted for a Republican governor want cuts. It doesn't mean that the minority who don't want cuts forfeits their right to protest, just like when a vocal minority of individuals protested against the health care bill (even when poll after poll showed most people liked individual aspects of the health care bill).

The bill IS an attempt to eliminate public sector unions. It's not only a spending cut bill, which it does by increasing the amount that public employees contribute to their benefits, but it also places significant burdens on unions that would provide limited to no fiscal benefit to the state. As an example, imagine if workers were required to re-enroll in Social Security annually, if Social Security contributions were voluntary, and Social Security only paid out until it ran out of money. It kinda makes SSI a big waste of time.

Interestingly, why are police and firefighters exempt from these provisions, especially when they are often some of the best compensated public employees? If we're trying to save money shouldn't the folks with the best salaries and benefits also contribute to the solution?

I agree, and I think public workers SHOULD contribute more to solving the state deficits, but I don't think eviscerating collective bargaining for public workers is the right thing to do.

Most public sector workers take a pay cut compared to comparable private sector jobs in exchange for better job security and benefits. I worked for the State of California for a few years, and most of the people I worked with or got to know could have made anywhere from 25-100% more annually in reasonably similar private sector jobs. Most of them stayed in government because they liked the atmosphere, their colleagues, and the idea that they were working to try to make the state a better place to live, as opposed to working to help make money for the big boss.

At least in California, only public safety workers are prohibited from striking.

The Gov was elected by a roughly 68 % majority.

Love this, the teachers are so concerned about their students, there has been no school for the past 3 days. At least in Madison.

In any company I've ever worked for if I called in sick, particularly for multiple days, and they found out I was out and about doing anything. I'd return to an empty desk, if they even let me back in the door.
PERIOD, no warnings, no hearing no nothing.
So why do these people think they deserve different.
These teachers let down the very students they claim to be so concerned about.

States are broke, here in Il the big problem is the Union and the Poli's are in bed together. Who contributes HUGE $s to the Poli's UNIONs, so they have been given lucrative benefits that the Poli's know they can't afford, but they fan won't hit it until they are retired. So they kick the can down the road, but in states there is a wall in the way now.

As many of the news programs here have indicated, unions generally work well with private sector companies. They have to work together or the company goes bankrupt. States etc don't really have that luxury YET, so the unions don't work with them.

Wis wasn't even on a list I saw on TV, they were comparing the safety of the states muni portfolios. If you buy the states Munis will you get your money back.
The scale was based on GDP of the state vs the amount of muni's outstanding, anything over 10 was dangerous, Ca came in at 79, IL is 122. Again Wis wasn't even on the list, think how bad some of these other states are.

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KLK, MCSE

1990 500SL

I was always taught to respect my elders.
I don't have to respect too many people anymore.

We do know for a fact that Governor Walker is not interested in balancing the budget but busting the unions:

So much for the Republican credo of allowing local communities to address their issues in their own way – Walker sounds more like a big government Democrat.

There are two things that appear in MS Fowler's posts more often than they should - (1) admonitions to us to avoid name-calling and (2) direct personal insults from MS Fowler against those who disagree with him. Both habits are tiresome, IMHO.

As to the question asked in the OP, the following column from Wednesday makes a persuasive case that the Governor's goal is to bust the unions, not balance the budget: http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

If he wants to bust unions, fine. I hope he does it honestly.

Unexcused absent government workers need to be fired. Post haste!

I don't agree that there can be a law prohibiting collective bargaining. Doesn't seem right to me.

Other than that, the surplus was over $120M when he took office. What happened to it?

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You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows - Robert A. Zimmerman

There are a number of states that forbid collective bargaining by public employees. In fact about half the states do so.
But this seems to me the state is much like the spend happy citizens that can't live within their income.
The lawmakers did just grant $114 million in business tax breaks, so it's hard, for me anyway, to see just what problem the lawmakers have.

That a strange comment since most of Fowler's post was parsed as questions.

Is their deal really too good to be true, or are they just making regular wages? State employees here in Maryland don't get paid a heck of a lot.

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