Who here drives a hybrid?
 

Before owning one I thought the Prius was all hype and that people weren't saving any money by buying or leasing a new hybrid. Any savings in gas was offset by car payments. I still believe that, but I think if you can afford a new hybrid, or better yet find a used one for fairly cheap, the savings in gas will actually mean something.

After buying a used first-gen Honda Insight, I can't think of ever going back to conventional gas engine cars. I get average low to mid 50s in the city and upwards of high 70s on the freeway. My fill-up intervals are 5-6 weeks. Now with gas prices in SoCal going up again (what's up with that?), I think a hybrid is the way to go. When I see big single-occupancy SUVs or big pick-ups, especially lifted up ones--I don't mean work SUVs or trucks that people use because they need to but those that are status symbols--I think to myself "suckers" :P

But I still want an SL500!

I like those first gen Insights. Very cool cars! They aren't bad on a twisty road either huh? Love lightweight 2 seaters.

Meh gas isn't that expensive, I rather just buy a diesel MB I can live with 30mpg in a full size, powerful, comfortable car.

Fuel isn't a huge expenses, even my truck only burns about $2,300 a year at 15mpg.

When it hits $10 a gallon than something like that would start to make a lot of sense, well I'd buy an electric car at that point and just rent a gas car for trips.

I have read recently that hybrids only save money when gas is above $4/gallon. Not sure why more people in the US don't look at the diesel alternative, as that would be my choice over hybrids. If you look at Europe, about 50% of vehicles are diesel.

"High 70's on the freeway"? I doubt it. If it were true, Honda wouldn't be able to keep up with demand for that car. Also, hybrids typically get better mileage in local driving, as they use regenerative braking, which doesn't exist on the freeway when the gas engine is the sole source of power.

I don't drive one, but the cat lady down the street has a sparkly new Prius. She used to give me a dirty look and thumbs down every time I drove by in the 420SEL.

I stopped all that when I did a burnout in front of her house one morning with my ironhead Sporty running straight pipes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lhPNw0fcJQ&feature=related

Hybrid? You mean a British car with an American engine?:D

Rscurtis, go to InsightCentral and you'll see what I mean. Actually, Honda's hybrid system is slight;y differnt than Toyota's. Where the Prius excels in city driving, Honda's IMA system (at least to my understanding as it pertains to the 1st-gen Insight) excels on the freeway. I think the reason the Prius gets better mileage on city roads is that it can run on electric under certain mph and therefore can offset gas useage quite a bit while driving farther. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Here's proof of my 70+mpg on the freeway.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v290/amge55/temp.jpg

Keep in mind that mine is a CVT (auto) and the 5-speed manual can get insanely high mpg! No joke.

I'm still a car guy, so I don't look down on non-hybrids nor do I tell everyone what a good person I am by driving a hybrid or tell people to get one. I know it's not for everyone. And I still don't think it may not make economic sense to buy one when whatever you save at the gas station is made pointless by what you have to pay to own and drive the car.

Anyway, the first Insight is pretty sporty and rides like a sports car. All aluminum with trickle-down build technology from the NSX and in fact comes from the same factory that built the NSX and S2000. I knew nothing about this car when I decided to buy one. My choices were actually the Audi TT, Porsche Boxster, S2000, and the '96-00 SL500.

I do have a diesel alternative and I got it only because I was doing a lot of long distance travel of 150-200 miles a day. Today, if I had to get another vehicle, it sure as hell won't be a diesel since my commute is much shorter regardless of what Europe does, wants to do or doesn't do.

1. Fuel price can fluctuate by up to 10 cents from place to place. Gas price is more stable.

2. Fuel stinks and you have to wear gloves. No such issue with gas.

3. Second class citizen at the pump. So few pumps with diesel and so many more with gas and some azzhat blocking your pump.

4. Pump areas are usually dirty including the nozzle. See #2

5. Diesel has gelling issues when it gets too cold.

6. Every fuel station sells gas. Not ever station sells diesel.

I drove one for a week, an Enterprise 2010 Toyota Prius. Nice cabin space for a compact car; decent acceleration but there's no escaping the handling and relatively light feel of a compact car. Not particularly confidence inspiring cornering and subject to being tossed around a bit by crosswinds.

Only Siths deal in absolutes, Darth Aklim. I pass by a fuel station along I-70 in PA. It only list the price of diesel. I think it only sells to semi-trucks.
As for the milage claim of 70 mpg, I don't trust the electronic fuel monitors. So, fill up your tank. Then drive it. Record the miles and fill up. Divide miles driven by the gallons to fill it up.
I do know someone with one of the early Insites. He does claim 65 mpg or so. The car does look very aerodynamic. So, I am not discounting, that it can/does get this milage. Also, a variant of the Geo Metro, the Pontiac Fire Fly was suppose to get 65 mpg or so.
Tom

A friend of mine has had a couple of first-gen Insights, both 5-speed and CVT. He has never seen 70MPG highway. Mid 60s, yes, but not 70.

There is a very simple reason why demand for that car was so low. It isn't very useful as transportation. It's a small 2 seater with very limited luggage space. Essentially, you can carry yourself and a briefcase, that's about it.

Those first insights were very efficient, but at the cost of performance IIRC. Being a bunch of old diesel owners (among other vehicles) I don't think the performance would be a deterrant for us. I have ridden in several new prius' and haven't seen above 32mpg on any of them because the drivers have no clue how to get good mileage through their right foot.

A MT 1st gen Insight gets better highway mileage because it has lean burn and because it's much smaller. In general a Prius gets better mileage in the city because the transmission they've used/patented is better than anyone else's layout. It offers the best mechanical efficiency and allows the engine to consistently run as efficiently as it can, something that other parallel or series hybrids cannot do. They can do one or the other, but they can't offer both because Toyota pretty much dominates hybrid patents.

I do think many licesnse Toyotas patents. Ford claimed the milage award with the Fussion Hybrid. Although I don't know what real world milage is on any of them. It will be interesting how the Chevy Volt and others like it perform in the real world.
Tom

I have a 2010 Milan hybrid (same chassis as Fusion and Lincoln MKZ).

A hybrid "premium" price wasn't an issue since I bought it when the 2011's were out, after Ford announced the phaseout of Mercury, at the end of 2010 when the dealer wanted them off his lot (he had 6 left). I paid a LOT less than sticker and got a very nicely equipped car.

There are no performance/driveability tradeoffs based on acceleration. Handling, braking, etc is normal as compared to the 2-3 rental gas-powered Fusions I've driven.

I get an "honest" average of between 38-40 mpg in combined driving on regular gas. (miles driven/fuel burned, not what the readout says). My worst mpg was when the engine had to run longer in order to warm up the car to meet the climate control requested temp.

In an mpg-cents per mile comparison, the 38-40 mpg on regular would have a 10% premium over diesel due to the higher cost of diesel. Availability of biodiesel could mitigate that due to tax breaks, but the only biodiesel retailer in the 7th largest city in America closed so that's not an option (how's that for options). Stations near my house are about 50/50 with or without diesel. I can't assume there's a pump there.

In the Ford hybrid implementation acceleration hurts mpg the most. Stop and go is on the battery (unless you have a heavy right foot). Cruise on the highway and it's gas+supplemental battery.

I've changed my driving to avoid the congested and jam-prone freeways (abysmal sprawl in San Antonio) and get to work quicker on less gas over surface streets.

But if I was doing a lot of highway driving - I might consider a new diesel. I believe the strength of the hybrid is in the regenerative braking and the computer controlled shut-off while stopped, not on highway cruising.

I agree with Yak that owning a hybrid has made me more active in the driving process to maximize fuel efficiency. However, I'm no hypermiler but as I drive the Insight more I've picked up on techniques that will bring out the car's potential in increasing mpg.

Since getting my Insight, I only fill up when near empty to get a better idea of how much gas I used. And with each gas recipt I will write down avegae mpg for that tank and total distance driven, plus any notes that might explain increase or decrease in mpg. I mainly use my car to commute to work and much of my driving is in the city with numerous lights and involves stops and deceleration/acceleration typical of city driving. From my computer reading, I average ~53mpg on each fill-up. My calculations of dividing miles driven by gallons consumed pretty matches the computer reading. Keep in mind this is only city driving. When I do take the freeway, it bumps my mpg average higher. My fill-up ended with an avergae of 55.4mpg. But when I did the calculations, the car's computer seemed 1.7mpg higher. I don't know if that had anything to do with the insanely high freeway mpg I got that bumped the avergae up.

Anyhow, about the Prius. I've read that the Prius can achieve 50-60 mpg. But it seems people I've taked to say they only get mid to high 40s.

I'd agree with that. Prius is a great car too, but for someone who likes to actually drive a car, the old Insights are actually great fun.

1800 pounds or so, 2 seater, very... raw driving experience, kind of like a nicer handling, lighter 240D IMO. And obviously very economical.

They didn't sell that well because Americans tend to want at least a 4 seater... Toyota was smart in that they kept the "Camry" philosophy with the Prius, in that it's a practical car with a lot of cargo room and a softer ride.

My Pruis gets 42MPG City and 52 highway.No matter how efficiently i drive in the city,42MPG is the max.

I remeber the Porsche adds during the late 70's early 80's. They claimed the 928 or 924 only needed 16 hp to maintain highways speeds in the US. So, 55 mph or so. So, I could see a hybrid being able to cruise on the highway with a smaller motor efficiently, and use the electric motor to add power for acceleration to merge or pass.
Also, GM and Chrysler used the cylinder shut off to increase highway mpg on several cars. I think they still do.
Tom

The reality is that a hybrid carries a huge initial and huge recycling energy cost that is hidden. The most efficient vehicle remains a high MPG small diesel as there are no extensive electronics and batteries to deal with.

I agree, most reading I have done states that the overall environmental cost of a Hybrid vs a regular car is negative.
You save gas while in use, but the energy creating and disposing of the various specialty item negates any savings and then some.

While I drive a gas vehicle, I personally feel diesel is the way to go. They (mostly from my readings here) provide better gas mileage, seem to last much longer, are just as clean and biodiesel is much less destructive overall.
It does not disrupt food stocks and is not as energy energy negative, ethanol from what I've read takes about 7 units of energy to produce 10. Ethanol IMHO is a government boondogle here.

I have also read some information that refining oil to diesel requires less energy than gas.

I do feel though that Hybrids are a good interim solution until a better solution is found.

I think pure electrics (even the volt) are also very good interim solutions, many people can do much of their general driving within it's limited range.
Although I feel they need to do better, I figure 75ish miles to a charge is about right. Despite GMs claims of 40 miles to a charge, I am reading the real number is in the mid 30s, which is BARE minimum IMHO.

My wife drives a 2001 Prius. We bought it in 2006 with 53K miles. It now has 110K. We spent $13K to buy the car, which is admittedly high for a subcompact its age at the time, but mileage was obviously quite low.

But beyond that, the cost of operation has been outstanding.

In 54K miles I have done the following maintenance to the car:
New tires, summer and winter; Change coolant (engine and inverter); Change trans fluid; Change plugs (tho they probably didn't need it); a new accessory battery (a little gel type unit); and a new serp belt.

Most recently I replaced some light bulbs for the climate controls, changed the PCV valve at 100K and installed a new gasket on the fuel filler cap to resolve a check engine light.

That's it beyond oil changes (the car takes three quarts per change).

So the "hidden costs" seem to have remained in hiding for me.

The main traction battery appears to be doing fine. There was a service bulletin on the car to reseal cell terminals to prevent electrolyte leakage, which has the potential to shorten battery life. But my impression from Internet forum chatter is that the batteries are generally holding up quite well.

As a driving experience, the early Prius feels like an economy subcompact. I drove it on a 200-mile round trip last summer and felt pretty beat up by the time it was over. The newer models are a more refined ride on the highway. And they all seem to do better on economy while driving in town. The EPA mileage numbers reflect that.

I had been commuting (40 highway miles one way) in my 300td but it's been semiretired in favor of a car I've found cheaper to operate: a '95 BMW 540i. Miles per gallon is about the same as the diesel, for which fuel comes at a premium these days.

No offense, but you should read more, or at least try different sources.

Most of what I have read is consistent with kknudson's statement. If you have some sources that say otherwise I would truly like to read them, I think its an interesting perspective/argument that transcends the usual gas mileage discussion.

You might try http://priuschat.com/forums/ ... it's an active forum that includes some pretty technical content. Obviously, you're going to read from the other side of the coin there.

Here's a recent thread at Prius Chat that might be of interest: http://priuschat.com/forums/generation-1-prius-discussion/90268-do-hybrids-hold-up-over-time-video.html

http://priuschat.com/forums/environmental-discussion/

Their environmental discussion looked promising...but in reality they completely (I mean 100%) ignore this question. The one post I found they immediately called a troll and berated the poster for having a pickup truck. I am genuinely interested in this topic, and it is relevant to my academic studies (thinking enviro marketing paper)...on to digging up scholarly resources

VOLVO Diesel Hybrid
 

When you take the rare earth metals required for the motors and batteries, add in the energy to produce those batteries then to dispose or hopefully recycle the batteries the savings in energy over the life of vehicle is negated.
I agree there are conflicting opinions as to how much, but everything I have read shows most or all + of the savings are lost.

From what I have read Solar is somewhat similiar, although they have gotten much better.
An article I read a few years back showed that over the life of the solar cell, it will only procduce about 80 to 90 % of the energy used to produce them.
I do not agree, but it was written by a scientist from one of the producers of solar cells.

Finally, VOLVO Diesel Hybrid
http://www.smartplanet.com/technology/blog/transportation/volvo-launches-worlds-first-plug-in-diesel-hybrid/135/

I'd like a first gen insight as that is a real hybrid car. No frills, no bloat

Never! They make me cringe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOvp69lnZbA

I'm sorry -- I lost the thread on your reference to "this question" that they ignore ... do you mean recycling the batteries?

The question of the manufacturing/disposal/recycling process being (in total) more polluting than the pollution savings by buying "green".

The battery isn't going to last forever, and to keep that car on the road beyond the death of that battery, a very expensive new (energy intensive to produce) battery will need to be installed, and the old battery (energy intensively) recycled. What does a diesel need to last a long time? Oil changes....filters.....general care. Toxic waste? 0 Expensive Batteries? 0 Rare earth materials? 0

A VW Polo diesel can get EIGHTY miles per gallon. With no fancy batteries/motors/electronics.

Heck, even a C220cdi gets in the low to mid 40's!

Indeed. I've a friend out in Portland from my days in the electric vehicle hobby. He bought one of the first Honda Insight hybrids when they first came out. Battery packs on these were nothing more than 150 to 200 nickel hydride D cell (yes, flashlight D cell) batteries strung together in series.

A few years down the road, his battery pack started showing signs of age and lowered capacity. He was already well past the 80K mile warranty on the battery pack. He asked the local Honda dealer what it would cost for a new battery pack. He was quoted $5500 PLUS labor.:eek:

Being used to working on electric vehicles, he eventually figured out how to disassemble the battery pack, install new D cells and solder them back together. But even just paying for the D cells alone, it still ran him $1500 for the required number of nickel hydride D cells.

And from what he related, you definitely don't want to try to drive an early Insight with the IMA turned off or inactive due to a dead battery pack - that little 3 cylinder gas engine couldn't get the car out of it's own way by itself according to him.

Toyota initially offered an 8 year/80K mile warranty on the battery pack for the Prius as well. But I've noticed in the last couple of years they've dropped that to 3 year/36K miles.

Respectfully, guys,, I'm skeptical to the whole horror story premise. Got any links to back it up?

I guess we'll find out pretty soon, though, because Toyota has sold over 2 million Prii worldwide (the second million in less than 2 1/2 years), so we should be up to our kiesters in dead hybrid batteries in short order. Tree-hugger armageddon! How deliciously ironic.

I agree, the entire arguement completely fails the common sense test. Even a Prius consumes several tens of thousands of dollars worth of gasoline over its useful economic lifetime. If that much energy were consumed manufacturing the car, even if it was more efficiently priced than gasoline (ie electricity) it would add many thousands of dollars of cost to manufacturing the car. Given that Toyota profitably sells the Prius for about $25K, I don't see it.

I remeber before I got a hybrid, I was a skeptic and thought buying a hybrid was all hype. I remember reading and even mentioning to a fellow coworker who was looking into buying a Prius that a replacement battery will be very expensive, like somewhere in the neighborhood of $10k! Boy, was I grossly misinformed and fell for it. While hybrid batteries are expensive, they're really nowhere near $10k! Nowadays, repacement batteries have dropped.

Remil, the first Insight was sort of a production hybrid prototype that Honda sold at a lost. It served a marketing and research purpose. The 1.0 liter engine can actually propel the car without the IMA battery, but it's important that you have a functional IMA system to make the car perform as designed.

For those who drive a prius, what mpg do you get on average. I really like the Gen. 3 Prius, but I know it makes no economic sense to buy one now. The EPA rating is higher.

Edit to add: If the VW Polo gets 80mpg why don't we get it since gas is such a big issue here? 80mpg? Wow!

That is 80 miles per imperial gallon, not US gallon.

So that polo is only getting about 60mpg. Hybrids get that.

Ah, I found the missing link. A company called CNW Marketing Research put out a paper several years ago called "Dust to Dust," in which they rated the design, construction, use and disposal of a Prius as higher per mile than a Hummer H3 for the 2005 model year. Trouble is, the paper estimated the Prius averager lifespan as only 109,000 miles! The Hummer, according to CNW, would likely last 300,000 miles. The company argued that the car was usually the second vehicle in a household and used mostly for short trips.

Also, the creation of innovative technology for the Prius was more energy intensive than the "amortized" technology of the Hummer, according to CNW.

CNW's findings were widely challenged, of course. And CNW has since changed its tune. Unfortunately, you now have to pay for their reports, but Wikipedia sums it up:

"CNWMR has since added data for 2007-2008 model year cars in the June 2008 release of their "From Dust to Dust" study and the Prius cost per lifetime mile fell 23.5% to $2.191 per lifetime mile while the H3 cost rose 12.5% to $2.327 per lifetime mile.[2] The Prius and smaller hybrids in general now cost less per mile than any large SUV, according to their own data."

I wouldn't ridicule the original report -- CNW was dealing with a very fluid market that probably shifted significantly between the time data was collected and the paper was published. Before 2005 the car was kind of a curiosity. Since then, over 1.5 million have been sold worldwide.

Here's the link to "Dust to Dust": http://www.cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/DUST%20PDF%20VERSION.pdf

Uhhh, no. Japanese government subsidized the development costs. Otherwise, you'd be paying around 40K for one.

Even with that help, they took a bath on them the first couple of years. I read an interview a few months back with Toyota's CEO. He'd had them cut the initial build cost in half. He said if they could cut that in half again (ie, to 25% of the initial build cost), then they'd clear as much on a Prius as they did on a Corolla.

No way Jose. When you take the rare earth metals required for the motors and batteries, add in the energy to produce those batteries then to dispose or hopefully recycle the batteries the increase in energy required is about 1% more than a conventional vehicle.

Where you probably pulled your information from was a "study", and I say that very loosely, by CNW marketing where they equated vehicle cost with energy use, then made all sorts of other weird assumptions about vehicle lifespan to "conclude" that a Hummer used less energy than a Prius, which was total BS. That said, it was very good marketing since people believe a marketing firm more than they believe scientists from MIT.

The same has been said for solar panels, but it's pure BS just like the CNW blurb was.

That was supposedly completely wrong. From what I heard Toyota and Honda saw the billions given to American car companies through PNGV and started their own programs because they were afraid of being left behind. Of course the domestic automakers squandered any head start they had and shot themselves in the foot w/ SUVs, but that's something else.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTOyiKLARk

Just to supplement the other top gear link in thread

Top Gear is awful! :D

I love 'em because they love to BS, but that's really what do most of the time. Switch positions and the results will be the same, the car drafting the other car will get better mileage, although the BMW was still more inefficient while drafting the Prius even if it did get slightly better mileage. I supposed if someone's commute to work consisted of them ragging on their Prius the whole way then they might like a BMW diesel instead even if it gets slightly worse mileage, but the point of most hybrids is that their owners don't need to drive in circles at WOT to get to work. ;)

Here's what it comes down to. If the price of gasoline tops $4 again, it will spur sales of hybrids, foreign and domestic. The average person cares first and foremost about saving a buck. You can argue all day about hidden costs and ecological impact (got to laugh when Prius critics don their Birkenstocks and "green up"), but the average joe is going to look at the window sticker and the price on the gas pump. For many people in the market for a family people-moving appliance that gets 40+ mpg, a hybrid is going to make sense.

Consider Japan, a country with a vibrant car culture but very expensive gasoline. There, the Prius was the best selling car for 20 months running until the new Honda Fit hybrid edged it out. And for 2010 it broke Japan's record for greatest domestic sales in a model year, topping the Corolla's high mark set in 1990. This is a bread-and-butter car with a track record for reliability, and it's been rewarded for that in the market. It's not a hit with enthusiasts, but it's not meant to be.

I'm at a Honda dealership getting tires put on my moms chevy( ha). But im sitting in a CR-Z hybrid and I kind of like it. It has a 6 speed! A hybrid with a 6 speed!

The Honda CRZ looks nice all around. But for a small hybrid, I wish it could get better mpg.