The 90% top rate argument is largely a canard, while the top marginal rate was indeed 90% the existence of loopholes (closed by the way by Ronald Regan in the 1986 TEFRA act) ensured that virtually nobody actually paid the 90% rate. Here's a table that shows the effective rates paid over the years and while the trends are down a bit the rates are basically unchanged over the last 40+ years.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=456

I know people like to believe otherwise but the percentages of taxes paid by rich and poor taxpayers have remained relatively stable over the years.

I agree with your observations about increased global competition being a significant factor, we need to recognize this and take steps to make american businesses more competitive in the global marketplace.

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I saw something on that recently and it has me confused. If changes in the tax laws don't change the percentages of taxes paid by the rich and poor, then why do the rich fight so tenaciously to keep their tax cuts? I'm sure that's a dumb question, but I really am confused on that point.

I completely concur my friend.

It's taken us a few generations to lose our way and we wont return overnight.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Are you saying we no longer have an affluent middle-class?

99% of those who have lived on the planet the past thousand years or so would probably disagree.

It's such a matter of perspective.

The bum walks up to me pan-handling while listening to his I-pad.

Happens all the time.

Most of those "Rich"....aren't realy RICH. I can't afford a new car AND be able to fund my 401K both. But I qualify for those evil tax cuts.

What Obama calls rich are most of the Middle class.

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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

This is more of a rhetorical question rather than one directed at you. Is it even possible for those young people to succeed? How would we even begin to change the mindset?

I'll use an example of a married couple I know very well, they have two kids and their household income puts them firmly in the middle class. Given their lack of education, not too bad when combined with healthcare and retirement benefits. Both are very personable and capable. They both grew up in the city, one in a large family with a mother and father and the other in a small family with a single mom, both received assistance from the state. None of that is particularly germane other than given their upbringing they've got what most would consider pretty decent heads on their shoulders.

That said, their children are discouraged by the father from succeeding "too much" in school because he doesn't want them to be seen as "geeks" or "poindexters" (his words, not mine). And the kids being responsible and looking out for themselves in school run the risk of being labeled "snitches" or "narks".

Each of the couple are very concerned with their reputation in the workplace. Taking on new responsibility or performing tasks outside of their job description is considered "brown-nosing" so they see little incentive to take on more responsibility even if they are compensated more.

If that's the mindset with a comparatively stable and self-sufficient household, what chance do kids from completely dysfunctional ones with generational histories of collecting assistance have?

There is a stigma attached to academic achievement which carries over to employment as well. How does one change that?

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That's pretty consistent with my understandings as well.

Take away the rhetoric and the problems come down to disingenuous spending not the revenue streams. The competition issues are the result of s nation (US) that had gotten complacent.

Healthy entities live within their means. They adjust as their means adjust.

So RR was able to justify increasing the effective tax rate for top earners, but this president cannot. Yet Reagan continues to be the role model for many many republicans. The irony!

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I think part of this is because very few groups, on either side, wish to help the public to grasp the truth but would rather perpetuate their agendas. (cf. some of the postings on this thread)

This nation has plenty of revenue to accomplish amazing things. It's just chosen to behave 'like-a-drunken-sailor.'

My apologizes to sailors.

Well said Tim, and in the opinion of one long-time CPA, entirely accurate. But Reagan did have Democratic help let's not forget. Sen. Bill Bradley, he of NY Knick NBA fame to the youngsters here, was a major proponent of the "flat tax", or what will be the closest thing Americans will ever see to one.

SwampYankee made an important point. How do we overcome the work ethic of many of today's young, and not-so-young people?
When they hear one of the major political parties continually bash " the rich" are we surprised when they have a poor work ethic? I am not.

My wife deals with the attitude almost every day in her job as a substitute teacher in Harford County, MD. The County is split by US rte 40, and the attitudes mirror that split. The kids in the rte 40 corridor generally come to school with poor attitudes toward education. One 3rd grader had a 5th grade brother who actually PAID little brother to do poorly. Parents almost always defend their little darlings--My child would NEVER say/ do that! Kids KNOW there are no consequences to their actions--they even pass from one grade to the next in spite of their lack of learning. Yes, there are exceptions to this generalization, but they are rare. The odd thing is that in many cases the poor work ethic is also mirrored in the school administration. The kids are doomed. When the school board and administration accepts the crap that goes on, they will get more of it. They need to demand excellence instead of making excuses for failure.

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Public education has been on a downward spiral, imo, for the past 40 years. However, the parent(s) share the blame, at least equally, if not more so. Too many males & females giving birth to children to be reared in unstable and undisciplined environments. Can't blame the school board for that.
Poor parenting and poor education = doomed at birth for many kids. Present society is incapable of changing that equation I'm afraid.

As long as they gcontinue to get handouts....they have no reason to face the problem either.

You can teach on old dog new tricks.....you just make the alternative unattractive enough even the laziest most dense person will "get it" eventually.. many hovwe low standards....and are happy with their handouts..... take that away....hunger can be a huge motivation source.

Hunger does not equal starvation....

think instead of food stamps for the lazy...think Nitriloaf being handed out.....it's universally loved in Prisons....and provided proper nutrition. But want better....then go out and earn it.

Too many of the lazy poor think they are above the physical work Illegals willingly take without a second thought.

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Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
1979 300SD W116
1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
1987 GMC 3/4 ton 4X4 Diesel
1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
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Section 609 MVAC Certified
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

That is a significant problem, and I certainly see it quite often.

My uncle for some reason a few years ago decided to buy a 5 family in Ansonia, which was a mistake; but anyway its interesting to see how those people on the lowest level of society live.

For starters most of the units are about $600 a month, and the majority of the people who rent them work in minimum wage jobs or not far above it. Most have drug/mental issues, or are just lazy. One rather play Xbox all day than work.

These people have zero chance of any upward mobility, they will live and die broke. They also view it as something undesirable which I don't understand, education is not valued by them.

I see the divide partly as a cultural problem. Its also not exclusive to this country, just about every other developed country has this issue.

Over the last 20-30 years life has gotten pretty easy to live if you just want to get buy, my uncles renters for example are not starving. They are all fat and happy, and usually drunk/high. So their isn't much of an incentive to better themselves, nor is their any social pressure.

Throw in the fact that its a heck of a lot easier to make money these days, for those that area educated and motivated and you have the perfect circumstances for a big divide.

Unlike in the past the economic divide seems actually someone mobil and easy to get in and out of. A lot of the people in it are self made to a point but you have to remember the playing field is a bit different for certain people.

Its a lot easier to do well if your parents are successful and encourage similar behavior in their kids, also if the parents have the financial resources to help the kids along a bit that certainly helps. When you have kids being raised say in my uncles low class rentals those kids don't get that, so unless they are exceptional and figure it out themselves they are stuck.

Lastly when I went to college it was a real eye opener to me when I saw how bad some public schools are. I went to very good public schools so I was well prepared, but kids that graduated from Bridgeport, New Haven, Hartford, etc were essentially at an 8th grade level and it drove the professors nuts trying to catch them up. I would say the average student who graduates from HS in those cities, but is not going to college is probably at a 6th grade level, maybe 8th if they had a c average. That's a huge roadblock to upwards mobility.

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Interesting. I am working hard so I can get in a higher tax bracket. I will have more than I have now.

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