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  #1  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:48 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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Theory of Truth

Kerry seems to be on Vacation (good for him) and occasionally sticks his head in.

He mentioned a phrase I had heard before that intrigue me; Theory of Truth. I'll try to read about it as I can.

However we had a small conversation going in the Maureen Dowd thread but I thought it would work better to start its own.

Here's where we left off .....

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerry View Post
I'm not a believer in rational truth. I don't have a strong theory of truth. Your argument above about belief systems implies that any belief system is acceptable. When it comes to beliefs, anything goes. Christianity in all its forms, Hinduism in its theistic forms, Islam, Judaism, Heaven's Gate, Children of God, Ramtha School of Enlightenment, all are equal belief systems incapable of being distinguished, accepted or rejected on rational grounds.
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by sjh View Post
As intelligent, learned and ponderous as you are I am certain there is nothing I have said that you have not 'processed' in your life and come to some 'peace' with.

Regarding intellectual truth I am highly pragmatic.

Regarding belief systems, wow, I do not have sufficient wisdom, particularly having just awoke and only being drug-free and finally done being 'cut up' for 2 weeks to provide an all-inclusive answer.

I'll both ponder your comment and listen to your remarks.

At this point my goal was two-fold: to establish the limitations of 'rational' truth (while simultaneously embracing the potency of rational models) and to state my perspective that everyone, every culture, etc has components of non-rational (as distinct from irrational which I am sure are present as well) beliefs in their identity.

I find it disappointing and exhausting to constantly be barraged with claims that I am somehow a 'simpleton' because I acknowledge that I have a belief system with non-rational components. Everyone does.

Jan Goodall writes with greater consideration of the primates she observes than some of the posters on OD regarding Christians. It's both vile and imbecilic.

I do not have 'all-of-the-answers', not even close. But ending the reduction of those who differ to morons (I am not accusing you of this) sure seems to me to be a place to start.
This was my initial response to Kerry.
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  #3  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:48 PM
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elchivito asked made a comment which is here - elchivito's post #121

I responded here - sjh's post #123

but elchivito thought I was non-responsive or insultive or in some other manner my response where not adequate/useful/etc - elchivito's post # 127

I include this for the sake of completeness and I suppose for some context.

That two people do not effectively communicate, that one dislikes the other, that there may be personality conflicts, differences in neurological structures, conflicting psychological mechanisms or spiritual conflicts doesn't surprise me.

However, if after a reasonable period of time if all people can do is argue I don't know what to do besides acknowledge there is a difference and move on.

So I wanted to answer the thrust of Kerry's comment (if I understand it correctly).

Last edited by sjh; 08-07-2011 at 08:03 PM.
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:49 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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Most of my life I've been mr. math-guy and it comforted me to be able to understand everything in very well-defined mathematical-like relationships.

I don't really need to say that life doesn't work this way and ultimately life has forced me to acknowledge more and more the 'fuzziness' of life and how often, no matter what you do, there seems to be inevitable uncertainties.

I'm saying this for context but also to explain why I find it hard to answer some questions in the black-and-white manner that most of us would like.

In math symbols have absolute meaning. That is 1 means something and every mathematician knows what it is. In the same way it can be said 1 ≠ 2, etc.

Words don't work that way. Words often have many meanings. Take the word instrument or address or skirt these have many meanings. Further meanings change with time, with context, and when spoken in person, by the intonation and body language of the speaker, etc.

So looking at Jesus' statement in the Gospel, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." To discuss that we have to know what those individual words meant then, what the meant when combined together, what they meant to those who heard them when he spoke them, what they meant to the early Gospel readers and what the are suppose to mean to us today.

If it was a mathematical formula it would be easy for me to go steps 1, 2, 3 ... and come to a conclusion. Words are much more subtle, ambiguous and often intentional vague. So in the above quote from the gospel of John it seems clear to me that Christ is saying I'm it, there is no alternative.

But having seen so many times in life when I was absolutely certain I completely understood something to later learn that I was wrong I need to allow more space in my life for others to find these meanings themselves. I'll help, if asked but I can't, for so many reasons I can't stand on a street corner and preach about their inevitable damnation.

It sure isn't because of fear of people, rejection or doubt in my relationship with Christ. It's just the best I can do.

Finally, I'm finally done being cut-up and medicated so I have some energy and capability for the first time in over two years. I tried getting involved over here about 2 months ago but I was still on drugs and they needed to go back in and do some more cutting.

I'm starting to be functional for the first time in a bit. When you've been down for a long time and not sure that you'll be coming back there's a certain (understandable) zeal about being 'back-in-the-game.' Folks might easily be getting tired of me making all these comments.

Don't worry, being flat on my back for much of the past 1.5 years means I have LOTS of chores and needs before me. I'm too weak to do them now but before the month is out I expect I'll be directing most of my vigor into the demands of my life.

So my momentary exuberance will quickly be redirected into other channels. Just wait a bit, and, as one of our fearless leaders said many years ago, you wont have sjh to kick around any more."

Last edited by sjh; 08-07-2011 at 08:46 PM.
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2011, 09:16 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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The mind is willing but the flesh is weak.

I gotta rest.

If Kerry or others want to discuss I'll try to have something constructive to contribute tomorrow.

If not it'll go where it goes or I'll just delete it if that's the consensus.


Last edited by sjh; 08-07-2011 at 11:05 PM.
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  #6  
Old 08-07-2011, 10:30 PM
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5 posts in a row by the OP ~ makes you wonder if there is any one out there or any one who cares!!!!!!
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  #7  
Old 08-07-2011, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
5 posts in a row by the OP ~ makes you wonder if there is any one out there or any one who cares!!!!!!
Well that could easily be.

But in this case I grabbed them so I did not write 10,000 words on one post.

There are lots of thread I never open so this one is free to have no interest and disappear as well.

Sunday at ~ 2200 EST isn't the peak of action either.
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  #8  
Old 08-07-2011, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
5 posts in a row by the OP ~ makes you wonder if there is any one out there or any one who cares!!!!!!
Cut him some slack..this is OD, and he can do as he wishes.

I just dont understand most of what he is talking about..most of it is way over my head.

The only thing I am looking forward to is the end of this month..when Ramadan is over, and I can stop fasting.
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  #9  
Old 08-07-2011, 10:44 PM
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Hey, I care: I love this stuff! Theory of Truth, Theory of Mind -- you can't get any more interesting and valuable an understanding of the human condition than that!

More, please.
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  #10  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:00 PM
sjh sjh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilcutt View Post
Cut him some slack..this is OD, and he can do as he wishes.

I just dont understand most of what he is talking about..most of it is way over my head.

The only thing I am looking forward to is the end of this month..when Ramadan is over, and I can stop fasting.
Thanks.

But I can talk way too much and as long as someone isn't antagonistic I'll step back if I'm 'outa line.'

Do you fast during sun up, for a longer period?

Do you take any sustenance besides water?
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  #11  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Hey, I care: I love this stuff! Theory of Truth, Theory of Mind -- you can't get any more interesting and valuable an understanding of the human condition than that!

More, please.
I was going to delete the thread, I'm running out of gas.

I think I'll just step back for a bit and see what happens.

I agree though that epistemological maters can get the old gray cells busy.
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  #12  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjh View Post
Thanks.

But I can talk way too much and as long as someone isn't antagonistic I'll step back if I'm 'outa line.'

Do you fast during sun up, for a longer period?

Do you take any sustenance besides water?
30 days of Fasting..From sun-up till sundown..no food..no water.

Funny thing, I would have thought that going all day without food and water would make me ravenous when provided with food.

Not the case.

In fact..my body requires LESS food.

Actually I am not complaining (just trying to deflect some arrows being shot at you). Once I understood Why Muslims fast, it makes it worthwhile.

Unto you Peace~
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  #13  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:17 PM
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I think I will be checking back on this thread, even though I think much of it will be over my head. I've read a few books on the subject of philosophy (Bentham seems to have known what he was talking about, not so sure about Kant), but most of the time my philosophical pondering stops at "Bibo ergo sum". On that note, I'll see who's hanging out at the local bar.
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  #14  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilcutt View Post
30 days of Fasting..From sun-up till sundown..no food..no water.

Funny thing, I would have thought that going all day without food and water would make me ravenous when provided with food.

Not the case.

In fact..my body requires LESS food.

Actually I am not complaining (just trying to deflect some arrows being shot at you). Once I understood Why Muslims fast, it makes it worthwhile.

Unto you Peace~
I appreciate your kindness.

I've done some fasting in my day though I always took water.

I've lost 55 lbs in the past year but it was the surgeries.

I had no appetite for 7 months and it has only been in the past 2 weeks that food has interested me.

Doing much better. Nothing like almost losing something to make you appreciate it even more.

I think you and I being respectful with each other can do a some good here.

Be well. I'll include you in my prayers (unless you do not wish me to).
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  #15  
Old 08-07-2011, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjh View Post
I appreciate your kindness.

I've done some fasting in my day though I always took water.

I've lost 55 lbs in the past year but it was the surgeries.

I had no appetite for 7 months and it has only been in the past 2 weeks that food has interested me.

Doing much better. Nothing like almost losing something to make you appreciate it even more.

I think you and I being respectful with each other can do a some good here.

Be well. I'll include you in my prayers (unless you do not wish me to).
All prayer is good..and wont harm anyone (except maybee me trying to get my stiff cumbersome Caucasion body to kneel & sit during Solah)

Sounds like you are going thru a 'Hell-uva' time.

When things like this happen, it just reminds us of how fragile we are as human beings.

You could of given up the will to live..but you didnt..I admire that.
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