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elchivito 08-19-2011 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTI (Post 2774071)
My personal experience, as well as those of my children, with the public school system is pretty much the opposite of the post above.
So is mine, and I have a teensy bit of experience in that field. In 30 plus years as a teacher and administrator, I never belonged to a "union", neither the NEA nor the AFT. Some of my teachers did, but not many. YMMV, as AZ is a right to work state. There is no doubt some negative influence from unions on the current state of education, but there are so many other factors that blaming it solely on them is a gross oversimplification.

10fords 08-19-2011 11:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Honus (Post 2774078)
:rolleyes:Then she is not going to one of the best public schools in the country.Are you suggesting that science classes should not teach anything about global warming? That would be a fairly radical, politically-motivated change to the science curriculum.I'm going to call baloney on that one. America is big enough, IMHO, to withstand criticism now and then. What are you afraid of? People are still getting after Obama for his so-called apology tour. All he did was enhance our reputation abroad by saying things that everyone knows to be true but for some reason would not say. He didn't cast the country in a bad light, at all. People are way too thin-skinned on that one, IMHO.Yep, pretty much. http://www.texastribune.org/texas-education/public-education/texas-social-studies-receive-failing-grade/
:rolleyes:- It happened- I saw it with my own two eyes

Yes she is -you don't know where she or I went to school.

Teach them everything- not just the part that fits your agenda.

If you think Obama has enhanced our reputation abroad I'm really not sure we live on the same planet, so further discussion is futile.

aklim 08-19-2011 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj67coll (Post 2774039)
I thought you were in the military in Singapore?

- Peter.
I went to school till 16 and went to KY. Went back to that place to fulfill my legal obligation to the country and serve in the draft there. After my 731 days in the military, I left as fast as I could back to Sioux Falls, SD to continue my schooling.

sjh 08-19-2011 11:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTI (Post 2774071)
My personal experience, as well as those of my children, with the public school system is pretty much the opposite of the post above.
Of course every individual example is unique.

That's why, with large numbers, we take statistical analysis.

Not that it matters but I'll easily defend my position that the average, overall education level that is both being taught and retained has significantly declined.

--

Further students are taught values and topics that I find highly offensive and directly contradict mine. I believe many parents have a similar perspective. When I was a child (IMO) this was much less so.

--

Finally, regarding man-made, global-warming, as a dire threat to human existence and warranting a trillion+ dollar degradation to the world's economy;

I'm glad to have it taught as what it is -

1. a hypothesis
2. an agenda used by certain groups to promote their social/economic goals
3. a funding source for researchers

.

sjh 08-19-2011 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10fords (Post 2774059)
... is under attack from the religous right? ...
Not surprisingly I am exceptionally close agreement with what you have said with one caveat.

Terms are thrown about and loosely defined so it's hard to be precise but ...

There is a group, I'm not sure of their size, that often fall under the category of 'religious right.'

On OD and in this thread we have seen certain individuals (more than one) who display an extreme and apparently irrational response to ideas or perspectives different than their own.

Quite a few folks have said, "hmm, somethings going on here which has nothing to do with these ideas or this conversation."

In the same way quite a few folks who would fall under the banner of the 'religious right' seem to be irrational, frightened and hostile. They seem incapable of doing little more then repeating hackneyed slogans and foaming at the mouth.

Now before the other side get's all atwitter, rest assured you have your comparable group of 'looney-tunes' as well.

The demands before us are challenging enough without completely going off the deep-end.

.

MTI 08-19-2011 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by elchivito (Post 2774082)
So is mine, and I have a teensy bit of experience in that field. In 30 plus years as a teacher and administrator, I never belonged to a "union", neither the NEA nor the AFT. Some of my teachers did, but not many. YMMV, as AZ is a right to work state. There is no doubt some negative influence from unions on the current state of education, but there are so many other factors that blaming it solely on them is a gross oversimplification.
The State of Hawaii is predominantly a Democratic Party state; has a teacher's union (HSTA) and has only statewide school district, run by the state's Department of Education with oversight through a Board of Education. In some national survey's Hawaii ranks near or at the bottom, possibly ahead of states like Nevada and Arizona, but not by much.

However, all my children graduated public high school and were accepted to college on the mainland and in Hawaii. Just lucky? ;)

sjh 08-19-2011 12:15 PM
^^^

You guys do know I'm in California.

They may as well amend the State's constitution and put in a 4th branch of government: SEIU, NEA, etc.

You have to walk down the corridors of the various institutions were I use to work & try to keep a straight-face about the benign influence of the educational unions.

I use to get political propaganda pieces in my work e-mail. I complained to the administration. They said these things happen. I asked how come they only happened from one side of the political spectrum?

I twice surveyed the faculty and employees; 15% felt significant threats and intimidation at work. I approached management and asked to have the e-mail practices stopped. They refused. I threatened action under a 'hostile work-place environment.'

They chose to not renew my employment.

-

The messages we teach our youth at academia.

.

davidmash 08-19-2011 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTI (Post 2774071)
My personal experience, as well as those of my children, with the public school system is pretty much the opposite of the post above.
Ditto. I don't have kids but my nieces go to public school here in DFW. the older one is taking AP classes and will be able to finish College in 3 yrs verses two. Smart girl and we can have some very educate discussions. I'm quite impressed for a 15 yr old.

davidmash 08-19-2011 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2774096)
Further students are taught values and topics that I find highly offensive and directly contradict mine. I believe many parents have a similar perspective. When I was a child (IMO) this was much less so.

Or possibly it was because you agreed with what was being taught. I know I did not. And I was not alone.

All I remember being taught/told was essentially that the USA was good, never did anything bad and that we were the savior of the globe. Gays were never even mentioned. Civil rights and slavery were a foot note in the history books. Native American history did not even get the foot note.

I would argue that at least in this regard, the US education system is vastly improved. Just my opinion but judging from most of your comments on the board if you are offended by some of what is taught, I think they are goig in the right direction.

pj67coll 08-19-2011 01:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth (Post 2774008)

I think public education is the backbone of our culture.

I think having the working class be financially successful enough to be middle class is what made our economy the envy of the world.

Education is expensive but it needs to be viewed as an investment not an expense.\

I have had an excellent life which is based on the readily available public education that was present when I needed it. I am in favor of making these opportunities available to all children regardless of their race, ethnicity or financial background.

Our country has been doing that.

We should continue to do it.
All this is entirely correct. However missing in the overview is the "quality" of the education the kids are recieving today. If kids are not challenged by and held accountable to high standards the education is not worth squat. I also work in an educational environment as does my wife. My expeirence of what I see in the classroom across 14 schools varies widely but to say that it is what I'd consider a "quality" education is incorrect. I'm an athiest. In fact so is my wife but despite that I'm not really objecting too much to my step son's fathers attempt to get him into a catholic high school because the simple reality is that the standards of public high schools that we have access to are so abyssmaly low. But then I'll also point out that I don't think much of the sandards of our three state universities either.

- Peter.

t walgamuth 08-19-2011 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10fords (Post 2774059)
Tom- now that you no longer have the power to issue infractions to those who have a different view of union teachers than you, I will respond to your opinions. As a product of, and a parent of three children in the public school system I believe I have an informed view. First off- the teachers union does not exist for the benefit of the students. Nothing they do or stand for in any way helps to further the betterment of education. They are a left wing organization bent on imposing their agenda on the children, and enriching themselves at my expense while doing it. My kids go to one of the best public schools in the country, yet at the 10th grade level my daughter is doing work I did in the sixth grade. But she has learned a lot of things I wasn't taught; Global warming, gay rights, hate speech, American bad, everyone else good, etc..

Public education is under attack from the religous right? Are you serious? You make it sound like they don't want the kids to learn. What they don't want is a bunch of highly paid leftist indoctrinating the kids when they are supposed to be teaching them the three R's. For the record- kids who go to religous schools receive a vastly superior education than those from public schools. This was not true when I went to public school. The bottom line is; the system is broken. Kids are not receiving a quality education because the union teachers and administrators are not about doing what is right for the student, but what is right for their agenda and pocketbook. You can't convince me that an organization that would appoint Kevin Jennings as its "safe schools" czar has my kids education as their priority, and not a politically correct agenda. Yet they always want more money even though the districts that spend the most per pupil have the worst scores/ graduation rates!

All of what I wrote above certainly does not mean I think every union teacher is evil, or out to further the radical agenda, but unfortunately enough of them are to where they are the norm rather than the exception. I am in contact with, and friends and neighbors with a lot of my kids teachers, Sadly the ones who are truly interested in educating are retiring due to the hostile environment for those who don't follow the party line. Go to any school and look in the teachers parking lot and count the Obama bumper stickers versus the McCain ones and you will quickly see what side the teachers are on.
I never said "religeous right". I said "Right".

I'm pretty sure I never infracted anyone for disagreeing with me.;)

10fords 08-19-2011 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth (Post 2774008)
Being a member of the boomers, who supposedly had very good scores on college prep tests, I can say this:
1. My kids used to bring homework home that seemed to me as if they were doing things in junior high that I did in high school.

2. There is a lot of talk about dumbing down shools these days, which I find a lot of silly talk. see #1.

3. I went to an excellent small town school, Greencastle, which contained all the children of professors from DePauw university, most of whom were very very bright and very very focused on education.

4. I went to Ball State University to the Architecture school which is generally regarded as one of the top Architecture schools in the country.

5. My wife is a fourth grade teacher in Lafayette School Corporation.

6. I served for four years on the LSC school board.

7. Public education is currently under attack from the political and religeous right. At the moment, at least here in Indiana, the right is winning.

Why is public education under attack from the right?

Here are my opinons:
a. People on the right generally want to favor the people who already have money and power.
b. Public education is by far the most expensive item on our domestic budget.
c. The right wants to eleminate all unions, even though the teachers union is a pretty weak entity here in Indiana at least.

Personally? I came from a working class family who valued education. I have seven siblings. Without the pell grants and college loans I probably would have missed out on college.

I think public education is the backbone of our culture.

I think having the working class be financially successful enough to be middle class is what made our economy the envy of the world.

Are Unions inherintly good? Not necessarily. Are they inherintly bad? Certainly not. Unions provide protection to workers where it is needed. The law currently allows Unions to be formed whenever the workers at a place vote it to be so. That seems fair to me.

If a Union is not needed, great.

Education is expensive but it needs to be viewed as an investment not an expense.

I have had an excellent life which is based on the readily available public education that was present when I needed it. I am in favor of making these opportunities available to all children regardless of their race, ethnicity or financial background.

Our country has been doing that.

We should continue to do it.
Apparently you have a short memory on both counts

sjh 08-19-2011 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10fords (Post 2773892)
X2- must have had a bad experience as an altar boy or something?
TIME-OUT

There's a very real likelihood that one or more posters/viewers had this happen to him.

It's too horrific to joke about.

Let's step back a bit.

.

t walgamuth 08-19-2011 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10fords (Post 2774211)
Apparently you have a short memory on both counts
Yes. You are correct on the first count. I read the sentence just below the one you have highlighted. :o

Oh well, either way it is undeniably true.;)

sjh 08-19-2011 04:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774137)
Or possibly it was because you agreed with what was being taught. I know I did not. And I was not alone.

All I remember being taught/told was essentially that the USA was good, never did anything bad and that we were the savior of the globe. Gays were never even mentioned. Civil rights and slavery were a foot note in the history books. Native American history did not even get the foot note.

I would argue that at least in this regard, the US education system is vastly improved. Just my opinion but judging from most of your comments on the board if you are offended by some of what is taught, I think they are goig in the right direction.
In terms of values.

Of course I prefer it when schools teach values consistent with my home. That's not what I said. I offered an opinion as an opinion that the values taught in public schools say in 1961 (50 years) were much closer to the values of the parents of the children.

Sexual ed is taught too early and too explicitly for my preferences. Highly debatable opinions are taught to children as facts. etc.

You may differ. Fine. I suspect more parents are in disagreement with what their kids learn today than they were 50 years ago.

You think differently. Fine. It would be easy for society to find out but they don't want to.

As far as I am concerned social science (what a farce that term is) makes no pretense of objectivity and simple generates a rationale for whatever goal the researcher wishes to obtain.

You disagree fine. I don't want my kid being brainwashed with that.

If it makes you happy I prefer they be brainwash with what you see as fiction, "All I remember being taught/told was essentially that the USA was good, never did anything bad and that we were the savior of the globe. Gays were never even mentioned. Civil rights and slavery were a foot note in the history books. Native American history did not even get the foot note."

1. I believe the USA and before that Great Britain is the greatest man-made force or cause for good in the past 300 years. You do not have to. I'm glad to defend my view.

2. What does the sexual behavior of an outlier group (or if you prefer minor statistical category) have to do with anything being taught in school? I mean do you want to teach history of left-handed people?

3. Your comment on CR and slavery is inaccurate where I grew up. And the policies this nation has followed since 1961, though highly understandable may well have more injurious to blacks than helpful.

4. It seems to me the teaching about AmerIndians is no more onjective today than it was then.

.

davidmash 08-19-2011 05:18 PM
I believe the things taught back then were closer in line with the ruling majority. From the sounds of it, you were part of that majority.

Kids are having sexual relations at ever increasing younger ages. Just say no has not, does not and will never work. Palin, her daughter and her son cannot even say no and she is an out spoken proponent of the nonsense.

Most parents do not even know what their kids learn today other than what they hear on the news from their talking head of choice.

No idea what you are referring to as far as the social sciences are concerned.

Then have an open discussion with your kid about what they learned and present them with your point of view. Why it is that your view of homosexuality as being bad is more appropriate than my view of homosexuality as being OK? Feel free to insert any other 'objectionable concept' such as evolution, climate change or what ever else you can come up with.

1. knock your self out. I could care less.

2. you don't like then and trying to explain it to you would be a waste of time.

3. OH well. FL and CA grade schools did not deal with it and the history books barely dealt with it. Not till I went to college and took Native history and Black history did I learn more about it. May be yes may be no.

4. no such thing as objective. I would argue it is far more inclusive of both the bad and the good that the US has done.

sjh 08-19-2011 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774294)
I believe the things taught back then were closer in line with the ruling majority. From the sounds of it, you were part of that majority.

I was 6 and no preference for anything but watching TV and eating candy.

Kids are having sexual relations at ever increasing younger ages. Just say no has not, does not and will never work.

I do not agree. You've given up on an approach that I haven't. You're free to as am I do otherwise. If my schools also give up then I don't want to support them. Pretty straight-forward.


No idea what you are referring to as far as the social sciences are concerned.

Who do you think performs whatever analysis you use to provide whatever statistics to argue your point. A biased instructor in the social sciences.

Then have an open discussion with your kid about what they learned and present them with your point of view.

Children are impressionable and learn by external reinforcement.

Why it is that your view of homosexuality as being bad is more appropriate than my view of homosexuality as being OK?

Utter balder-dash. I never commented on the morality of homosexuality. You said gays were never mentioned to kids in school. I said so what. I'm thinking K-5. I'm not interested in them learning about cunninglingus or ménage à trois. They're kids, let 'em be kids.

Feel free to insert any other 'objectionable concept' such as evolution, climate change or what ever else you can come up with.
The majority of what you taint me with I did not say.

However, the fact that I cannot express myself without being falsely categorized and not have my perspectives respected is another indicator of why I do not want to support public schools.

I have no problem with your views but you demonstrate an inability to allow mine to be treated courteously and considered.

You either ridicule or use fallacies.

.

tonkovich 08-19-2011 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2774318)
The majority of what you taint me with I did not say.

However, the fact that I cannot express myself without being falsely categorized and not have my perspectives respected is another indicator of why I do not want to support public schools.

I have no problem with your views but you demonstrate an inability to allow mine to be treated courteously and considered.

You either ridicule or use fallacies.

.
this, from the man who has accused kerry of being a "satanist"? :D

get a grip!

MTI 08-19-2011 06:06 PM
He's had a rough week. :rolleyes:

Botnst 08-19-2011 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2773337)
.

Our education system/philosophy is not working.

That is an opinion but I'll assume most will accept it.

I believe most will agree that 25, 50 or 100 years ago students graduated with a better grasp of what use to be called the "three r's".

Here's another issue, big problem:

Asians and whites do much better academically than Hispanics and blacks.

Our spending, social programs, political correctness (I'm not sure if this is relevant but put it here for completeness) and reverse discrimination policies are not making a dent. Some would argue they are hindrances. Some not.

So, using the structure of classical debate -

If one agrees that our current approach is not working do we increase those programs (which seems to be the goal of a segment of the nation) or do we pursue an alternative?

Oh, here's a link from the W Post giving some context -

Student Evaluations

.
None of the above. When in doubt Blame Bush. If that doesn't work, there's always argumentum ad hominem.

t walgamuth 08-19-2011 10:17 PM
I agree, it IS Bush's fault.;)

Botnst 08-19-2011 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth (Post 2774154)
...
I'm pretty sure I never infracted anyone for disagreeing with me.;)
That would of course, be your perspective. Wouldn't it?

davidmash 08-19-2011 11:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2774318)
The majority of what you taint me with I did not say.

However, the fact that I cannot express myself without being falsely categorized and not have my perspectives respected is another indicator of why I do not want to support public schools.

I have no problem with your views but you demonstrate an inability to allow mine to be treated courteously and considered.

You either ridicule or use fallacies.

.
It's not a matter of giving up. It is a matter of dealing with reality. The numbers show it does not work. US teen pregnancy is the highest in the waster nations IIRC.

Still no idea what you are talking about.

If you cannot have a discussion with your kid or if the external influences are stronger than your influences it strikes me that you might have a parenting problem or that your position is untenable.

Homosexuality is part of sexuality in general. Sexual activity is starting in 8th and 9th grade. I am pretty sure cunnilingus and ménage à trois are not taught in any sex ed class so I fail t see the relevance of that comment. Yes they are kids, and guess what. Hormones are part of kids chemistry. By 18, the guys hormones are at full speed and the genetic code is telling him to nail anything with a pulse. Telling a 18 yr old boy to just say no is just plain stupid. Some will, most will not and giving them the tools to not get a girl pregnant is a much wiser path. Or we can just continue down our current path of ignorance and have one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy.

OH cry me a river.

Bottom line is the US had been teaching your agenda for quite some time and you liked it just fine. Now your agenda s out of sync with more and more people and the segments of society who were neglected by your agenda are now speaking out. Your agenda is out of date, step aside or get run over. Your choice.

10fords 08-20-2011 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst (Post 2774493)
That would of course, be your perspective. Wouldn't it?
:D:D;)

elchivito 08-20-2011 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774514)
It's not a matter of giving up. It is a matter of dealing with reality. The numbers show it does not work. US teen pregnancy is the highest in the waster nations IIRC.

Still no idea what you are talking about.

If you cannot have a discussion with your kid or if the external influences are stronger than your influences it strikes me that you might have a parenting problem or that your position is untenable.

Homosexuality is part of sexuality in general. Sexual activity is starting in 8th and 9th grade. I am pretty sure cunnilingus and ménage à trois are not taught in any sex ed class so I fail t see the relevance of that comment. Yes they are kids, and guess what. Hormones are part of kids chemistry. By 18, the guys hormones are at full speed and the genetic code is telling him to nail anything with a pulse. Telling a 18 yr old boy to just say no is just plain stupid. Some will, most will not and giving them the tools to not get a girl pregnant is a much wiser path. Or we can just continue down our current path of ignorance and have one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy.

OH cry me a river.

Bottom line is the US had been teaching your agenda for quite some time and you liked it just fine. Now your agenda s out of sync with more and more people and the segments of society who were neglected by your agenda are now speaking out. Your agenda is out of date, step aside or get run over. Your choice.
Well said, but I've gotta tell you, you're way behind the curve. Sixth graders are fooling around these days. Lots of them. Ask any school counselor.

davidmash 08-20-2011 12:17 AM
Is fooling around the same as banging nastiest or are we still circling the bases?

sjh 08-20-2011 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774514)
It's not a matter of giving up. It is a matter of dealing with reality. The numbers show it does not work. US teen pregnancy is the highest in the waster nations IIRC.

Still no idea what you are talking about.

If you cannot have a discussion with your kid or if the external influences are stronger than your influences it strikes me that you might have a parenting problem or that your position is untenable.

Homosexuality is part of sexuality in general. Sexual activity is starting in 8th and 9th grade. I am pretty sure cunnilingus and ménage à trois are not taught in any sex ed class so I fail t see the relevance of that comment. Yes they are kids, and guess what. Hormones are part of kids chemistry. By 18, the guys hormones are at full speed and the genetic code is telling him to nail anything with a pulse. Telling a 18 yr old boy to just say no is just plain stupid. Some will, most will not and giving them the tools to not get a girl pregnant is a much wiser path. Or we can just continue down our current path of ignorance and have one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy.

OH cry me a river.

Bottom line is the US had been teaching your agenda for quite some time and you liked it just fine. Now your agenda s out of sync with more and more people and the segments of society who were neglected by your agenda are now speaking out. Your agenda is out of date, step aside or get run over. Your choice.
In this thread the issue is level of educational excellence.

You obfuscation aside the approaches you embrace coincide with a decrease in educational levels.

I want my k-5 school teaching basic education. I do not want them teaching values I find flawed.

So I oppose the current education system.

That's my agenda.

And you are right it is out of fashion, so is the caliber of our citizens.

What China did to the g-town kids it, India, Brazil, etc is doing to the US, and we're making it easier.

You'll be able to enjoy the fruits of your approach during your life time.

.

davidmash 08-20-2011 12:22 AM
OH good grief. The decline of the education has nothing to do with the increase in scope of education. If anything I think our delay in increasing the scope is what harmed it. So many people felt left out of the equation that they figured why bother.

Then there are the other factors that were mentioned else where about the lack of parental participation, single family homes, diet .. etc. The education system is sound, its the users that have declined in spite of the systems best efforts.

elchivito 08-20-2011 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774537)
Is fooling around the same as banging nastiest or are we still circling the bases?
I know of 3 11-12 year old girls pregnant in the last 5 years, and two 7th grade abortions. I had suspicions about several other girls who left school to be "home schooled" over the same time frame. Last year the new principal at my school intercepted a cell phone belonging to an 8th grade boy that was full of very explicit "sexts" that had been sent to him by an 11 year old 6th grader. My school is middle to lower middle class, 90 percent white working class, rural. If I were to extrapolate these facts to city schools where kids are far more worldly and sophisticated it wouldn't be pretty.

davidmash 08-20-2011 12:28 AM
:eek: Holy crap. I guess that explains our leading the race in teen pregnancy. Ignorance is not always bliss.

sjh 08-20-2011 12:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774545)
OH good grief. The decline of the education has nothing to do with the increase in scope of education. If anything I think our delay in increasing the scope is what harmed it. So many people felt left out of the equation that they figured why bother.

Then there are the other factors that were mentioned else where about the lack of parental participation, single family homes, diet .. etc. The education system is sound, its the users that have declined in spite of the systems best efforts.
Title of the Thread -

Had education quality decreased and if so do we keep on doing the same stuff

You'll have taken it all over the place

It seems many here do not believe the overall quality has decreased.

Fine. Show me a nation-wide 6th grade text book that compares to what was used in 1900?

Whenever I post factual, tangible criteria the conversation runs away, often to either anecdotal or derision.

Next, since it has decline do we keep on doing the same, increase the same approach or pursue an alternative.

I'd prefer each tax-payer had control over a percentage of their education tax dollar and chose which school, program, method was funded.

Ideas, conversation, alternatives -

Preferable to emphatic reiteration of preferences without an objective basis.

.

davidmash 08-20-2011 12:38 AM
You seem to think it's the system. From what I have read, most/some here think it's the user. If you d not want to hear the reply's, don't post the question.

davidmash 08-20-2011 12:39 AM
I already suggested the idea of having public trade schools and removing the stigma attached the idea of working with your hands.

sjh 08-20-2011 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774567)
I already suggested the idea of having public trade schools and removing the stigma attached the idea of working with your hands.
And I already said, I think that is a good idea.

I think what I am saying is called school choice. I've introduced the rationale and discussed it.

.

tonkovich 08-20-2011 01:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2774571)
And I already said, I think that is a good idea.

I think what I am saying is called school choice. I've introduced the rationale and discussed it.

.
gee, i think the "voucher" talking points memo is about to posted, right about now.

3, 2, 1,....

LaRondo 08-20-2011 03:06 AM
The deliberate dumbing down of America

chilcutt 08-20-2011 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aklim (Post 2774095)
I went to school till 16 and went to KY. Went back to that place to fulfill my legal obligation to the country and serve in the draft there. After my 731 days in the military, I left as fast as I could back to Sioux Falls, SD to continue my schooling.
For some reason, something does not smell right.
May I ask..'At the age of 16, did you go to the U.S. thinking that somehow you could escape the National Service in Singapore'..

And at some point realised that it would be a better choice to return and fulfill your obligation? Thereby doing so.

At the age of 16, I dont believe you could have entered colledge in the states (correct me if I am wrong), so perhaps you simply went to visit freinds/relatives, and got the idea that the U.S. would be agreat place to hide out/flake out/maybee become a citizen there.

Or perhaps it was your intention at the age of 16 to re-patriate yourself in the U.S., and you went there,scoped everything out then returned to Spore to finish N.S. And then returned to the U.S. to finish your schooling, and fulfill your lifes dream.

aklim 08-20-2011 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilcutt (Post 2774655)
For some reason, something does not smell right.
May I ask..'At the age of 16, did you go to the U.S. thinking that somehow you could escape the National Service in Singapore'..

And at some point realised that it would be a better choice to return and fulfill your obligation? Thereby doing so.

At the age of 16, I dont believe you could have entered colledge in the states (correct me if I am wrong), so perhaps you simply went to visit freinds/relatives, and got the idea that the U.S. would be agreat place to hide out/flake out/maybee become a citizen there.

Or perhaps it was your intention at the age of 16 to re-patriate yourself in the U.S., and you went there, and returned to Spore to finish N.S.
NS Deferment. You or your parents put up a cash bond and if you don't come back, well, goodbye money.

No it wasn't my choice to return. But I can't very well ask you to put up bond money and skip, can I?

I spent 2 years at a college so besides alcohol, I did study other things.

It was my dream to get the hell out of singapore since I was a kid. It was confirmed in 80 when we took a US tour. I was just going to college to pass some time till I was forced to serve my time in NS. Took the appropriate tests and qualified for a state school


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