are taxes efficient? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

sixto · #1 08-24-2011, 03:21 PM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14646975

Quote:

Some of France's wealthiest people have called on the government to tackle its deficit by raising taxes - on the rich.

Sixteen executives, including Europe's richest woman, the L'Oreal heiress Liliane Bettencourt, offered in an open letter to pay a "special contribution" in a spirit of "solidarity".

Later the government is due to announce tighter fiscal measures as it seeks to reassure markets and curb the deficit.

They are expected to include a special tax on the super-rich.

Before the announcement, expected on Wednesday evening, a letter appeared on the website of the French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur.

It was signed by some of France's most high-profile chief executives, including Christophe de Margerie of oil firm Total, Frederic Oudea of bank Societe Generale, and Air France's Jean-Cyril Spinetta.

They said: "We, the presidents and leaders of industry, businessmen and women, bankers and wealthy citizens would like the richest people to have to pay a 'special contribution'."

They said they had benefited from the French system and that: "When the public finances deficit and the prospects of a worsening state debt threaten the future of France and Europe and when the government is asking everybody for solidarity, it seems necessary for us to contribute."

They warned, however, that the contribution should not be so severe that it would provoke an exodus of the rich or increased tax avoidance.

The move follows a call by US billionaire investor Warren Buffett for higher taxes on the American ultra-rich.

Is there something special about helping the community through taxes? Seems to me the taxation system is an inefficient way to donate or distribute wealth. Why not donate voluntarily rather than invite the government to make you? The message I hear from Warrent Buffett and these rich French people is that if there's no law to force me to give, I won't give. Nice attitude.

Sixto
87 300D

MagnumPI · #2 08-24-2011, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

Is there something special about helping the community through taxes? Seems to me the taxation system is an inefficient way to donate or distribute wealth. Why not donate voluntarily rather than invite the government to make you? The message I hear from Warrent Buffett and these rich French people is that if there's no law to force me to give, I won't give. Nice attitude.

Sixto
87 300D

Well said!

spdrun · #3 08-24-2011, 03:28 PM

More proof that the French are smarter than the Americans as a whole. And looking at their country, it's nice to live in a place where cities are well kept up (yeah, they have poor suburbs, but so do we -- look at Newark or Camden, NJ) and infrastructure is kept in good shape compared to the US.

As far as donating:
(a) there may be no mechanism to voluntarily give to a government, because that could be construed as incitement to bribery
(b) a company has responsibility to its shareholders. In the case of corporate taxes, a voluntary contribution could be seen as a frivolity rather than a necessity like a tax payment.

Honus · #4 08-24-2011, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

...The message I hear from Warrent Buffett and these rich French people is that if there's no law to force me to give, I won't give. Nice attitude...

That's not the message I hear. The message I hear from them is that rich people in general should be required to pay higher taxes, including those who would not give their money away voluntarily. I have not heard any comment from them about their own personal giving.

davidmash · #5 08-24-2011, 04:07 PM

You are on a boat with 100 other people. The boat has a hole in it and is sinking. You cannot jump off for you will surely die.

1. Help bail out if you want too. If you or only a few of you bail there is no way you will make it.

2. everyone MUST bail to their ability. Still no guarantees but you are more likely to survive.

If bailing is optional I do not see my self making an effort seeing as though we will all still die and my effort will have been wasted.

If everyone must bail then my effort will make a difference.

If only a few Buffets 'donate' some wealth to the IRS the effect will be minimal and a waste. If everyone is forced/taxed fairly then the effect is far greater if combined with spending reductions.

spdrun · #6 08-24-2011, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

if combined with spending reductions.

As long as the sacred pigs (military and law enforcement) of the US populace get cut first, I'm cool with that.

MTUpower · #7 08-24-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spdrun

More proof that the French are smarter than the Americans as a whole. ...

The French may be smarter than the average New York Citidiot- but Americans as a whole?

sixto · #8 08-24-2011, 08:05 PM

The three issues I see are:

1) There isn't and I doubt ever will be agreement on what 'fair' is. Fair based on means has a lot of weight but is strongly socialist as well.

2) Generosity through the tax system implies support for the political system, decision makers, spending plan, etc.

3) How much of what the IRS collects goes directly to beneficiaries? I'd be surprised if it's anywhere as high as 50%.

I can't pretend to know what it's like to have a million dollars to donate let alone a billion. I suppose the mindset is well beyond what I can understand. There's another thread on Warren Buffett's agenda and I can appreciate that he's simply rallying the troops. I didn't mean to suggest that he isn't generous or is attempting to put conditions on his generosity. Far from it. By supporting the powers that be (and are yet to be) he shows faith in a system many have abandoned. In a sense, good for him. In another sense, many aren't in a position to take the risk.

I liken it to putting a fresh Metrics Motors engine into a rusted hulk. Maybe Warren Buffet and the French elite see it as the rusted hulk of a Delahaye, any example of which is worth saving.

Sixto
87 300D

sixto · #9 08-24-2011, 08:12 PM

To davidmash's point, I think it's more complicated than that. There are the added complexities of having to bail in a manner that some/many find illogical and inefficient, and a disproportionately small effort to patch the leak causing us to have to bail in the first place. The leadership has not laid out a feasible plan, or hasn't demonstrated that the plan in place will/can lead to success. And I know that many have already closed their minds to any plan from the leadership.

Sixto
87 300D

Jorn · #10 08-24-2011, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

The French may be smarter than the average New York Citidiot- but Americans as a whole?

I like balance: USA

The Clk Man · #11 08-24-2011, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorn

I like balance: USA

I like cheese.

Jorn · #12 08-24-2011, 08:35 PM

^^^
Only old Dutch cheese.

The Clk Man · #13 08-24-2011, 09:02 PM

Tax everyone at 10% NO LOOPHOLES and America's money problem will go away.

Rob Pruijt · #14 08-25-2011, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorn

^^^
Only old Dutch cheese.

Our cheese is good, at least the real "Gouda"
But my favorites are the French "Tom de Savoi" and the Spanish "Mahon"

Rob

davidmash · #15 08-25-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixto

To davidmash's point, I think it's more complicated than that. There are the added complexities of having to bail in a manner that some/many find illogical and inefficient, and a disproportionately small effort to patch the leak causing us to have to bail in the first place. The leadership has not laid out a feasible plan, or hasn't demonstrated that the plan in place will/can lead to success. And I know that many have already closed their minds to any plan from the leadership.

Sixto
87 300D

I was not addressing the end results of taxation as far as how it's spent. I was merely addressing the issue of why one person would not donate to the IRS. It's not going to make a difference, why do it. Yes there are inequalities but I see that as a separate issue.