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  #16  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Honus View Post
Libertarianism has surface appeal, but it just doesn't work. When applied to the health care issue, libertarians would have people die for lack of medical care. They won't admit it. They will try to dance around the issue, but they have no way out. That's what their governing philosophy means.
OK. so they die. What of it? I didn't cause it. Why am I "my brother's keeper"? Why should YOU be responsible for MY bad choices? Why is someone obligated to take care of YOUR bad choice? You had the choice to make and you chose poorly. Now, if you want to give away your free choice, fair enough. However, what you seem to want is the right to make bad choices and the removal of the sting of failure. Should an insurance company be allowed to charge me more because I am overweight, chain smoke, drink to excess, etc, etc? Absolutely. In fact my insurance company has found a way to "reward" you for making good choices by giving you cash back in some way.

This is like that old man that flew down TWICE to FL to claim his winning prize and later wants someone to be responsible for his poor choices. But wait. He wants to have free will too. IOW, I want my cake and to eat it. And BTW, I don't want to become fat from that cake too.

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  #17  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
People should do what they have always done: Die.
Absolutely, if a poor person can't afford car insurance and their car is totaled we don't expect the state to help them out. Why, if they can't afford health insurance and they or their child is sick and dying, should it be any different. Life is only worth whatever the individual can pay to preserve it.
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  #18  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Absolutely, if a poor person can't afford car insurance and their car is totaled we don't expect the state to help them out. Why, if they can't afford health insurance and they or their child is sick and dying, should it be any different. Life is only worth whatever the individual can pay to preserve it.
Here is a radical idea. In fact, the last time I heard of it was in the saying "Cut your coat according to your cloth". I doubt we'd be in this bad a state if we had done it with out budget. If you can't afford to have kids, don't. You and the wife want to have 50 kids? Feel free. Don't make your kids SEP (Someone Else's Problem).

Take personal responsibility for your bad moves. After all, you do reap the rewards of good moves, don't you? Is it fair that your profits are yours and the risks are SEP like the bailed out companies? Profits are their own and risk and more importantly downfall is SEP?
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  #19  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Absolutely, if a poor person can't afford car insurance and their car is totaled we don't expect the state to help them out. Why, if they can't afford health insurance and they or their child is sick and dying, should it be any different. Life is only worth whatever the individual can pay to preserve it.
What if they're dying from an incurable, contagious virus, or flesh eating bacteria? Even trying to treat them would result in more death! And if a doctor is forced to treat them, we all die. Zombie apocalypse. (See, I can come up with what-ifs, too!) It's such an asinine argument, like you're somehow morally superior because you advocate theft, at gunpoint, to pay for charity opposed to voluntarily contributing? Not everyone's as selfish and miserly as you seem to think, and yourself must be. Quit projecting.
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  #20  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumPI View Post
to voluntarily contributing? Not everyone's as selfish and miserly as you seem to think, and yourself must be.
Can you provide an example of a modern industrial society that has anything like universal health care based on a voluntary (as opposed to a taxed) system? Even a small subgroup which operated that way might be a useful example if there is one.
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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #21  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumPI View Post
What if they're dying from an incurable, contagious virus, or flesh eating bacteria? Even trying to treat them would result in more death! And if a doctor is forced to treat them, we all die. Zombie apocalypse. (See, I can come up with what-ifs, too!)....
The difference being that nobody has suggested that your what-if should come true.
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  #22  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Can you provide an example of a modern industrial society that has anything like universal health care based on a voluntary (as opposed to a taxed) system? Even a small subgroup which operated that way might be a useful example if there is one.
No. Can you point to a universal health care system based on coercion?
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  #23  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Honus View Post
The difference being that nobody has suggested that your what-if should come true.
Yes they have! The internets abound with people clamoring for a zombie outbreak.
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  #24  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumPI View Post
No. Can you point to a universal health care system based on coercion?
Plenty of those.
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1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
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1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #25  
Old 09-15-2011, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Plenty of those.
Really? UNIVERSAL as in not a single person gets turned down? Odd, I've not seen one.
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  #26  
Old 09-15-2011, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumPI View Post
Yes they have! The internets abound with people clamoring for a zombie outbreak.
Thanks for the warning. I will keep an eye out for that.
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  #27  
Old 09-15-2011, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumPI View Post
No. Can you point to a universal health care system based on coercion?
What other kind is there?
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  #28  
Old 09-15-2011, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Honus View Post
What other kind is there?
The proposition is mythical on it's face. "Universal" health care is non-existent.
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  #29  
Old 09-15-2011, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumPI View Post
The proposition is mythical on it's face. "Universal" health care is non-existent.
That is true, but meaningless in the context of this conversation.
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  #30  
Old 09-15-2011, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Honus View Post
That is true, but meaningless in the context of this conversation.
Hardly. If the point is to make sure no one is turned away, the second 1 person is turned away, it's a wash. The alternative doesn't try to advocate such fantasy. If that's how universal is defined, then a free, open market/society/economy allows everyone the same means and opportunities to acquire the wealth or charity to receive whatever medical services they require or desire. Thus, more universal.

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