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  #31  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by The Clk Man View Post
You sure talk about penises a lot aklim. Sup wid dat?
Well, sorry I was talking about you behind your back but now that you are here, I guess we can change the thread a bit.

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  #32  
Old 11-10-2011, 07:20 AM
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uh, there is more than one Robert here.....

My feeling on government and taxation always goes back to the idea that the closer to the taxed the better. In other words, your local hamlet is far better at deciding what the speed limit should be on your little side street or where the bus stop should be than the Feds. And most other decisions like that. Government services should be provided by the closest/best government to the taxpayer/recipient. Feds are better at running the War Dept. and the Post Office (I can't believe I just said that!) than having 50,000 little Post Offices, each doing things their own way.

Firetrucks are more expensive than most homeowners can afford so we need the city to collect taxes from everyone and buy a few and staff the firehouses. In some places, we can have a volunteer organization to fight the fires and lessen the cost. Most folks can afford a gun, so a lot of the police issue is covered, but we really need garbage pick up and we really REALLY need good sanitary sewer systems. Unfortunately we sometimes wind up with their management paid handsomely and working in a crystal palace. But do you want the Federal government operating the water system with little local offices staffed with GS99s?(How high does the classification/payscale go in GS/).
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  #33  
Old 11-10-2011, 07:27 AM
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Agree, BobK.
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  #34  
Old 11-10-2011, 07:42 AM
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Looks good to the ladies, promises much but doesn't work more than half way
You could describe me that way too.
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  #35  
Old 11-11-2011, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
Simply put, it makes any discussion of taxes moot. As I have said before, because of these tricks, I can lower your visible tax rates to make you happy by instructing the IRS to take say 5% off and yet load you up in a different spot where you cannot see. In short, accounting is impossible. You can tell me how much you paid in federal taxes and state taxes and say that back in the 40s, we paid more. You might even be able to tell me how much you paid in city taxes, stadium taxes, dog catcher taxes to some extent but you can never say how much you paid in total taxes. That allows me to "steal from Peter to pay Paul". So I give you a 5% break for voting me in at the IRS and state taxes. However, I load you back up in other areas. Perhaps more even but yet it makes you happy.

Best solution I can think of is to have no taxes whatsoever and tax at POS. IF you want to raise taxes you are going to have to raise it at POS level and then you have to justify to your citizens why you need that money. Right now, you can twist it around so badly that nobody will ever know.

IF you really want to think about it, ask yourself this, how much did YOU pay in taxes total. Not just the IRS but all the indirect taxes. If you don't know, you can't make a comparison between years.

Give me some facts or evident that these invisible taxes exist or are significant.

You seem to believe that although the top tax rate has been cut from 80% in the 50's to 35% today that somehow taxes have actually increased due to these invisible trick taxes.
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  #36  
Old 11-11-2011, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 732002 View Post
Give me some facts or evident that these invisible taxes exist or are significant.

You seem to believe that although the top tax rate has been cut from 80% in the 50's to 35% today that somehow taxes have actually increased due to these invisible trick taxes.
If the cost of doing business goes up, what do you think happens? Unless it is your contention that you can tax the hell out of one end and nothing can or will come out the other? If it exists, calculate it, if you can. If you cannot, nothing else you use as a comparison is little more than cherry picking of facts.

I seem to believe that with these trick taxes, there is no way to really know if it is a significant decrease or what it really is. Take your own situation. Tell me exactly what you paid in product and what you paid in taxes, both direct and indirect. Compare and contrast with the 50s and tell me exactly what the change has been. Don't tell me the IRS numbers. Anyone can do that. Tell me down to the dollar. Even just counting that some places have a city tax and county tax makes it so difficult. What more when you have to track it all the way to the origin of the product. When you can, tell me the difference. Till then, saying the IRS rates lower the cost is meaning less since you don't really know what we had in TOTAL TAX to begin with and what we have in TOTAL TAX paid TODAY.
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  #37  
Old 11-11-2011, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
If the cost of doing business goes up, what do you think happens? Unless it is your contention that you can tax the hell out of one end and nothing can or will come out the other? If it exists, calculate it, if you can. If you cannot, nothing else you use as a comparison is little more than cherry picking of facts.

I seem to believe that with these trick taxes, there is no way to really know if it is a significant decrease or what it really is. Take your own situation. Tell me exactly what you paid in product and what you paid in taxes, both direct and indirect. Compare and contrast with the 50s and tell me exactly what the change has been. Don't tell me the IRS numbers. Anyone can do that. Tell me down to the dollar. Even just counting that some places have a city tax and county tax makes it so difficult. What more when you have to track it all the way to the origin of the product. When you can, tell me the difference. Till then, saying the IRS rates lower the cost is meaning less since you don't really know what we had in TOTAL TAX to begin with and what we have in TOTAL TAX paid TODAY.
You can't even tell me what these trick taxes are. Find them, and add them up for us. Claiming that they are high is meaningless.

Sorry I can't tell you what I paid in trick taxes because they don't exist.

Sure there are taxes that get overlooked gas etc.

You are in denial and want to believe that taxes have been going up even though the facts prove otherwise.

This feels a bit like debating the existence of Bigfoot
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  #38  
Old 11-11-2011, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by 732002 View Post
You can't even tell me what these trick taxes are. Find them, and add them up for us. Claiming that they are high is meaningless.

Sorry I can't tell you what I paid in trick taxes because they don't exist.

Sure there are taxes that get overlooked gas etc.

You are in denial and want to believe that taxes have been going up even though the facts prove otherwise.

This feels a bit like debating the existence of Bigfoot
They are present but incalculable. But that they are present means that any equation you use to calculate what we are paying for taxes is meaningless unless you can include them. When the city of Madison enacted a recycling tax on businesses, how do you propose that we calculate what the impact is? We know it is there but it is impossible to calculate. You are simply trying to deny that there is any tax that is out there besides the IRS.

So tell me what you think a business does when it gets hit by taxes? Besides fold up or pass it down, that is. Does every business simply lower their profit margin to compensate for it or do you think that they pass the taxes on to the consumer. If they pass it onto the consumer, you too have been taxed.

Not by businesses. They have raised their prices from what I have seen. When fuel prices rose during Katrina, the freighting companies did raise my rates.

I am simply stating that if you cannot figure out what the taxes that are passed on to you are, simply using the IRS numbers is not going to be accurate. It might be higher or as you assert, lower. Without knowing all the numbers and since they have not been constant since 1950, the number we have is not worth much from the accuracy standpoint.

Lets make this real simple. Is it your contention that NONE, 0%, NADA, ZILCH of the city taxes, state taxes, dog catcher tax, stadium tax, bar tax, etc, etc that is enacted WILL NOT be passed onto you? If it is passed on, then you have been taxed indirectly. If it is not then your contention that we can simply go by your evidence is correct. If it is passed on to you, you have been taxed and if we cannot see what impact it has, it is impossible to come up with a valid comparison as to whether the tax rate is higher or lower unless you wish to use an inaccurate number.
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Last edited by aklim; 11-11-2011 at 04:37 PM.
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  #39  
Old 11-11-2011, 06:10 PM
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Interesting quote from this week's New Yorker by David Remmick . . .

Yet Cain is shaky on elementary things. Even after supporting the bailout of the banks, he called Obama's economic policies "bull$hit" and proposed a "9-9-9" tax plan, which amounts to a Robin Hood in reverse - take from the poor and give to the rich.
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  #40  
Old 11-11-2011, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
They are present but incalculable. But that they are present means that any equation you use to calculate what we are paying for taxes is meaningless unless you can include them. When the city of Madison enacted a recycling tax on businesses, how do you propose that we calculate what the impact is? We know it is there but it is impossible to calculate. You are simply trying to deny that there is any tax that is out there besides the IRS.

So tell me what you think a business does when it gets hit by taxes? Besides fold up or pass it down, that is. Does every business simply lower their profit margin to compensate for it or do you think that they pass the taxes on to the consumer. If they pass it onto the consumer, you too have been taxed.

Not by businesses. They have raised their prices from what I have seen. When fuel prices rose during Katrina, the freighting companies did raise my rates.

I am simply stating that if you cannot figure out what the taxes that are passed on to you are, simply using the IRS numbers is not going to be accurate. It might be higher or as you assert, lower. Without knowing all the numbers and since they have not been constant since 1950, the number we have is not worth much from the accuracy standpoint.

Lets make this real simple. Is it your contention that NONE, 0%, NADA, ZILCH of the city taxes, state taxes, dog catcher tax, stadium tax, bar tax, etc, etc that is enacted WILL NOT be passed onto you? If it is passed on, then you have been taxed indirectly. If it is not then your contention that we can simply go by your evidence is correct. If it is passed on to you, you have been taxed and if we cannot see what impact it has, it is impossible to come up with a valid comparison as to whether the tax rate is higher or lower unless you wish to use an inaccurate number.
So my tax rate is 0% because I charge the customer more and they pay my taxes, then when I buy something as a consumer they do the same to me in the form of indirect taxes and this is all so complicated that I never will know what I pay in taxes.
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  #41  
Old 11-11-2011, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 732002 View Post
So my tax rate is 0% because I charge the customer more and they pay my taxes, then when I buy something as a consumer they do the same to me in the form of indirect taxes and this is all so complicated that I never will know what I pay in taxes.
True amount, no man can say. As I asked my accountant before, it is nearly impossible to calculate.

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