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  #16  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Kuan View Post
Person 1 makes $10k and pays no taxes on that $10k.

Person 2 makes $500k and of that, $500k, pays no taxes on $100k.

Is this equitable? IMO it is not, as person 2 just skipped out on paying taxes on $100k while person 2 skipped out on only $10k.

Person 1 puts $10k in the bank and gets a 10% rate of return.

Person 2 puts $100k in the bank and gets the same 10% rate of return.

Is this equitable? From a purely mathematical POV it is, at least it is to me.

What bank is Person 1 and Person 2 using? I want that 10% ROR on my savings.

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  #17  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by LarryBible View Post
What bank is Person 1 and Person 2 using? I want that 10% ROR on my savings.
National Bank of Sao Paulo. Don't do it though, inflation there is like a few hundred percent.

My question from my perspective still stands however. I believe it is not equitable to have high wage earners skip out on paying taxes on hundreds of thousands of dollars of income while the lower wage earners skip out on only the first $10k.
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  #18  
Old 11-09-2011, 11:12 AM
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So make it a flat tax. 10% of EVERYTHING. You make 10 grand, send in one grand. You make 10 million, send in one million. No deductions, no adjustments. No body gets out of paying. Then start doing away with all the excise taxes. And all the things they fund. No tax on phones to pay for cheap internet at the library. No cheap internet at the library. If it is important to them, let them put in a local tax to pay for it. In fact, don't give any money to localities. Feds pay for Fed things, States pay for State things, localities pay for local things.
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  #19  
Old 11-09-2011, 11:18 AM
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Bob,

I couldn't agree more. It should be the same percentage whether you make $10 or $10 Million a year.

All this tax talk is mostly to create/aggravate class warfare. Even if you took 100% of the top 2 1/2% of the top wage earners money, it wouldn't even put a considerable dent in the now FIFTEEN TRILLION DOLLAR debt that's been racked up by these ne'r do wells in Washington.
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  #20  
Old 11-09-2011, 11:30 AM
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So make it a flat tax. 10% of EVERYTHING. You make 10 grand, send in one grand. You make 10 million, send in one million. No deductions, no adjustments. No body gets out of paying. Then start doing away with all the excise taxes. And all the things they fund. No tax on phones to pay for cheap internet at the library. No cheap internet at the library. If it is important to them, let them put in a local tax to pay for it. In fact, don't give any money to localities. Feds pay for Fed things, States pay for State things, localities pay for local things.
But then you have all kinds of other taxes they can enact to "Steal from Peter to pay Paul". As long as someone can say "well, we need a special tax for this, that or the other." we have the same issue. City wants to say recycle but they have no money. Put the tax on businesses. Fair enough. Now the business passes it onto you, the consumer in the item sold. So you don't really see it but it is there.

As I have asked before, tell me how much YOU pay in taxes if you can. So far, nobody can simply because they are taxed in so many ways not even the best accountant can figure it out. I think the simplest is to have a POS tax. Whatever you buy, you get taxed at the POS. No deductions, rebates, excuses, etc, etc. Buy 10 million, get taxed say 2 million. Buy $1000, get taxed $200. At the end of the year, you see how much you earned and you can figure out the taxes. After all, for every purchase, you stress the infrastructure so it is fair you pay for it.

Say you take a 20% POS tax.

I earned $100000 last year
I have $40000 left
I paid out $60000
I bought $50000 in product
I paid $10000 in taxes.

Now, if Joe Politician wants to get more money, he has to raise the POS tax. So say he wants to do that, he has to explain to EVERYBODY why he is doing it and feel the heat. Instead, today, Joe P. can simply lower your taxes to the state or IRS and put a new tax onto a business and they can pass it to you. All unseen but the effect is not as easily felt but it is there. Now he cannot "divide and conquer" by pitting this group against that.
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  #21  
Old 11-09-2011, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryBible View Post
All this tax talk is mostly to create/aggravate class warfare. Even if you took 100% of the top 2 1/2% of the top wage earners money, it wouldn't even put a considerable dent in the now FIFTEEN TRILLION DOLLAR debt that's been racked up by these ne'r do wells in Washington.
EXACTLY and while you two idiots are battling each other from the class warfare I just created, I'll pander to both sides and reap the benefits. This is like the sign I saw. 2 guys, one at each end pulling a cow and a guy on a stool milking it. On the stool was the inscription "Lawyer". Same thing here. You are in the upper class and I create a fight between you and the lower class, listen to your problems, pretend to help you BOTH and milk you two for all you are worth.

BTW, according to the urban dictionary, "ne'r do well" is defined as: A person who always kicks back, kicks it, relaxes. One who rarely shoulders responsibility and avoids stress and anxiety. I submit to you that these people have a responsibility. TO THEMSELVES as we all do. Just because they don't do well for YOU doesn't mean they don't do well for themselves. Win, lose or draw, they win. Republican vs Democrat. Whoever wins, we lose, much like AVP. Why? Because we have the system that allows them to do this.
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  #22  
Old 11-09-2011, 12:04 PM
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Aklim, your point is well taken regarding "stealth" or other taxes. Ultimately, consumers and property owners pay the lions' share of taxes. Businesses and corporations may collect a tax and forward it to the government, but the consumer buying their product is actually the one paying it. The point is that the govenment collects a lot from us by stealth. Your suggestion is that we simply have a national sales tax that is right up front and there is much value in that idea.

The problem gets into do we do that at each government level? Do we have 10% for the Feds, plus 8% for the State, plus 3% for the County, plus 2% for the City (total 23% in this case)? Eventually, you reach a pointy where black market and smuggling become a big deal. We see that now with the differences in alcohol prices between Ky. and Ohio. I'm not sure what solution is best, but all of this is fodder for honest, civil debate.
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  #23  
Old 11-09-2011, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by BobK View Post
Aklim, your point is well taken regarding "stealth" or other taxes. Ultimately, consumers and property owners pay the lions' share of taxes. Businesses and corporations may collect a tax and forward it to the government, but the consumer buying their product is actually the one paying it. The point is that the govenment collects a lot from us by stealth. Your suggestion is that we simply have a national sales tax that is right up front and there is much value in that idea.

The problem gets into do we do that at each government level? Do we have 10% for the Feds, plus 8% for the State, plus 3% for the County, plus 2% for the City (total 23% in this case)? Eventually, you reach a pointy where black market and smuggling become a big deal. We see that now with the differences in alcohol prices between Ky. and Ohio. I'm not sure what solution is best, but all of this is fodder for honest, civil debate.
Say 20% (just a number) and they can go divvy it up among themselves. NO OTHER TAXES so you can NOT jack this one up and lower that one. You have one pool of money and you cannot simply borrow from this pool to pander to those voters. At least, not like you can today
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  #24  
Old 11-09-2011, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
EXACTLY and while you two idiots are battling each other from the class warfare I just created, I'll pander to both sides and reap the benefits. This is like the sign I saw. 2 guys, one at each end pulling a cow and a guy on a stool milking it. On the stool was the inscription "Lawyer". Same thing here. You are in the upper class and I create a fight between you and the lower class, listen to your problems, pretend to help you BOTH and milk you two for all you are worth.

BTW, according to the urban dictionary, "ne'r do well" is defined as: A person who always kicks back, kicks it, relaxes. One who rarely shoulders responsibility and avoids stress and anxiety. I submit to you that these people have a responsibility. TO THEMSELVES as we all do. Just because they don't do well for YOU doesn't mean they don't do well for themselves. Win, lose or draw, they win. Republican vs Democrat. Whoever wins, we lose, much like AVP. Why? Because we have the system that allows them to do this.

I LOVE IT! If I were a cartoonist, I would draw that cow. That's a great analogy.
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  #25  
Old 11-09-2011, 02:03 PM
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I'm not sure that would work. Say the Feds really need 13% to run their stuff. Then maybe some states really need 6% for their stuff, but another only needs 3% and so on so that the total really needed for where you live is only 17% not the 20% you proposed. Where does the rest go? Never just give it to the govenment since they will spend it. No, I'll go with your system if each govenment gets to tack on their own percentage. Then they have to explain that amount to the voters.
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  #26  
Old 11-09-2011, 02:31 PM
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I'm not sure that would work. Say the Feds really need 13% to run their stuff. Then maybe some states really need 6% for their stuff, but another only needs 3% and so on so that the total really needed for where you live is only 17% not the 20% you proposed. Where does the rest go? Never just give it to the govenment since they will spend it. No, I'll go with your system if each govenment gets to tack on their own percentage. Then they have to explain that amount to the voters.
That could work only if they don't get to create more and more complications. What we have today is something they want to build to appease the voters and make sure it is free by not raising taxes in one way but tack it onto say a business which passes it onto the consumer. In WI, for example, the last governor (Doyle, IIRC) raped the road tax fund and used it for all kinds of other things. Remember the tobacco windfall money? Same thing. They even enlisted the utility companies by making those that can pay for utilities pay for those that cannot and then take that money and spend it on the DA's office. The utility company then has to eat the loss and pass it onto the paying customers. As such, they become an unofficial tax arm for the DA's office.
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  #27  
Old 11-09-2011, 02:54 PM
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and we keep voting for these guys.....

don't worry brother, you and I are pretty much on the same page. Then again, some want govenment to be bigger and tax more. As long as they say so, I have no problem with them. All fair subject for debate. It's the thieves in the night I have trouble with.
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  #28  
Old 11-09-2011, 03:07 PM
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and we keep voting for these guys.....

don't worry brother, you and I are pretty much on the same page. Then again, some want govenment to be bigger and tax more. As long as they say so, I have no problem with them. All fair subject for debate. It's the thieves in the night I have trouble with.
But there is the problem. We cannot vote for someone who refuses to run. Those that are both able and willing to make unpopular but necessary changes refuse to run so we have to vote for Mr LOTE. Lessor of Two Evils. I vote for whomever promises the least. That way they don't have to keep up with as much promises and less compromises they make and less damage.

and I am fine with bigger govt that taxes more as long as it can do more efficiently. Bigger and cannot do the job well is like a guy, lets call him Robert, who has a huge flaccid penis and cannot get it more than half up. Looks good to the ladies, promises much but doesn't work more than half way

Edited now that Robert is here and I don't have to talk behind his back.
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Last edited by aklim; 11-09-2011 at 10:47 PM.
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  #29  
Old 11-09-2011, 09:24 PM
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You know I wonder how much it costs the IRS to process one return. There has to be a breakeven point below which it's probably better to not file.
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  #30  
Old 11-09-2011, 10:12 PM
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But there is the problem. We cannot vote for someone who refuses to run. Those that are both able and willing to make unpopular but necessary changes refuse to run so we have to vote for Mr LOTE. Lessor of Two Evils. I vote for whomever promises the least. That way they don't have to keep up with as much promises and less compromises they make and less damage.

and I am fine with bigger govt that taxes more as long as it can do more efficiently. Bigger and cannot do the job well is like a guy who has a huge flaccid penis and cannot get it more than half up. Looks good to the ladies, promises much but doesn't work more than half way
You sure talk about penises a lot aklim. Sup wid dat?

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