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  #1  
Old 02-04-2002, 04:11 PM
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Help fighting traffic ticket.

Hay guys,

My dad just got pull over for stop sign violation. Apparent he did not stop long enough.

Is these a web site where I could get information to help him fight the ticket.

This could be big because the cop said he ran two stop signs.

thanks
blau

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  #2  
Old 02-04-2002, 04:46 PM
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i'm not sure about the info u need but here is a start

http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/category.cfm/catID/8A09EBA2-DCC7-4589-9ADC0530153F4C9C#CF015A63-6B69-4EED-A34B6F4035C8BE0E

hope this helps...and good luck
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  #3  
Old 02-05-2002, 01:55 AM
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Did your father...

...blow the Stop sign? If he did, then he should pay the ticket, stop complaining and be more careful next time. Blown Stop signs, along with driving through a red light, are a leading cause of traffic collisions.

I am angry that there are website that help drivers fight righteous tickets.

If he did not blow the Stop sign, then I strongly suggest that he go to court armed with evidence of his innocence. For example, he could take photographs of the intersection, especially form the officer's point of view, to prove to the judge that the officer could not have seen what he claims he saw. Also diagrams showing relative distances at the intersection, any obstructions (like trees or road signs), etc. would be helpful to the judge in deciding the case.

I served for many years as Judge Pro Tem hearing traffic cases in Van Nuys, one of the busiests traffic courts in the L.A. area. The overwhelming majority of defendants were ill prepared and offered little, if no evidence, to counter the officer's allegations. Consequently I often found them guilty. Although the defendant does not have the burden of proof to establish his or her innocence (it is the People's burden to establish the motorist's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt) the judge will be persuaded (as I often was) by a well-prepared defendant.

Hope this helps.
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  #4  
Old 02-05-2002, 07:12 AM
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I went to that site. It's really one big ad to sell more stuff like books on how to fight tickets and such. The best part was about how NOT to get a ticket

Kuan
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  #5  
Old 02-05-2002, 10:22 AM
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i used that site to defend myself from a speeding ticket without a lawyer

was I guilty.....yes

but it was the officers burden to prove it

i'm opposed to speed traps whose only function is to make money for the town

remember state troopers get $$$ when they show up to a trail

also they let u plead to a lesser charge =

1) they save money by not going to trail
2) no points on ur licence but they still collect the same amount in terms of the fine

-ren
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  #6  
Old 02-05-2002, 10:54 AM
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suggest retaining an competent attorney (its a legal matter now)...

if the law was broken= accept consequences (for not stopping= to the true definition of "stop") and modify behavior

if the law was not broken= prove your case, know your rights, pertinent laws, legal system, and have a good strategy

-fad

Last edited by -fad; 02-05-2002 at 02:26 PM.
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  #7  
Old 02-05-2002, 12:23 PM
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I am just sick and tired...

...of all the whiny, irresponsible people who are not willing to accept responsibility for their actions. If you break the law, then shut up, accept the consequences and be done with it. If you don't like the law, then do something positive to change it.

We are raising an entire generation of whiny people who are unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions. One of the things that I teach my chidlren is to obey the law, even if the think the law is unfair. If they think the law is unfair, then I teach them to lobby to change the law. (I am not talking about patently unfair and unjust laws like segregation or apartheid).

I have a young driver (you may have read my posts about my teenage daughter and her "new" 300TE) at home. I make darned sure that she understands that traffic laws are not optional. They are meant to be obeyed, not only for her safety, but for everyone's safety. If she doesn't like the law, she should lobby to change it. Or, in the latenrative, she should buy an island, or a Texas-sized ranch, and then she can drive any way she darn pleases. As long as she drives on public streets, that she shares with others, she better obey all laws, including stop signs, red lights and speed laws (speed trap or no speed trap).

RENYF1: Maybe in your state, police officers make $$$ to go to court. In California, they get paid the same as they would otherwise get paid if they go to work. Many times, officers are required to go to court on thier day off, or on a vacation day. Bummer, huh??? I guess it sucks to be them....I live in a no-plea-bargain county. You plea guilty to the charges or you go to trial. Makes it all that much intersting.

TxBill: I personally don't know any lawyers who are upset about Nolo Press. As a matter of fact, many are happy to see places like Nolo Press being available. First, many people, once they realize that things are more complicated than they originally seemed, end up going to a lawyer. Second, many people, after they screw up royally by following the DIY approach to law, have to go to a lawyer who then ends up charging extra money in fees in order to straighten out the screw up. It is like a lot of DIY mechanic that I know, after spending hours fiddling with their cars, and making things worse, they end up going to a mechanic.
I am not opposed to people fighting righteous tickets (if you carefully read my post you will see that that I offered some tips to the original poster in case his father's ticket was bogus). What I ma opposed to is people not accepting responsibility for their actions. Yes, there are people getting away with murder, or worse. OJ and Kenneth Lay are two examples that come to mind.


And yes, more power to the people. But more power, should not translate into anarchy, lawlessness, or worse.

Kuan: You are 100% right. The best advice is how to avoid getting tickets altogether, i.e., obey the lawy It is like birth control...the best one is just not doing "it" at all.

OK, now I'll get off my soap box, the altitude is giving me a nose bleed.
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  #8  
Old 02-05-2002, 12:51 PM
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In the case of my father.

In the case of my father. He did not blow the stop sign. The officer said he did not stop long enough (complete stop). He was in a residencial area. Was not going that fast anyways.

My question is what the hell is the cop doing there in the first place. It is obviously a stop sign trap.

I support the laywer and website that help people get people like my dad off as long as they have the cop have mandatory ticket quotas and speed, stop, sign traps.

IN THIS TIME OF AGE WITH THE 9-11 THING. WHY ARE THEY TRAPING MY DAD AND PEOPLE LIKE HIM. WHEN THEY COULD BE GARDING A BRIDGE, PUBLIC BUILDING OR SOMETHING.

TALKING ABOUT IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE. IS IT IRRESPONSIBLE FOR THE COPS TO SET UP SPEED TRAPS WHEN THEY COULD BE PROTECTING US.
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2002, 01:35 PM
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While I'm not taking anyone's side on this issue, consider that many times a "trap" is set up because of complaints by residents in the area, due to repeated violations of a posted speed limit, stop sign, or otherwise.

I live in a neighborhood next to a busy street. Unfortunately, some residents and non-residents alike seem to feel like it's okay to go blazing down a subdivision street to whatever appointed destination they are off to, with total disregard that at those speeds, they are ill-prepared to respond quickly enough to a small child darting after an errant ball, joggers, bicycles, pets, etc.

We are pretty far down the waiting list for speed bump installation, so I complained to the local police department for help. One of the first changes was to take the 30 mph speed limit sign down (30 mph in a subdivision?!!!), and reposted it to 20 mph. Then a motorcycle cop was posted there to monitor traffic. For the first week or so he just handed out warnings, and followed that with speeding tickets.

Needless to say, many folks were irritated, and felt they were unjustly punished, but they DID slow down.

Again, this is not an accusation in any way, and if the ticket was unfair, then definitely fight it in court. Just understand that not ALL speed traps are placed where they are to generate revenue...consider that maybe someone had been fatally injured on the same corner by a motorist who perhaps, did "blow through" the same stop sign...
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  #10  
Old 02-05-2002, 02:25 PM
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Re: In the case of my father.

Quote:
Originally posted by blau
In the case of my father. He did not blow the stop sign. The officer said he did not stop long enough (complete stop). He was in a residencial area. Was not going that fast anyways.

My question is what the hell is the cop doing there in the first place. It is obviously a stop sign trap.

I support the laywer and website that help people get people like my dad off as long as they have the cop have mandatory ticket quotas and speed, stop, sign traps.

IN THIS TIME OF AGE WITH THE 9-11 THING. WHY ARE THEY TRAPING MY DAD AND PEOPLE LIKE HIM. WHEN THEY COULD BE GARDING A BRIDGE, PUBLIC BUILDING OR SOMETHING.

TALKING ABOUT IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE. IS IT IRRESPONSIBLE FOR THE COPS TO SET UP SPEED TRAPS WHEN THEY COULD BE PROTECTING US.
Blau:

First of all, cut it out with the all-caps. All-caps is the equivalent of yelling. No one, least of all me, is impressed by yelling.

Second, cops don't have ticket quotas. They can write as many tickets as they want.

Third, if your father rolled thorugh the stop, then he broke the law. A Stop sign means: stop, look and, if clear, then go. If he did not make a full stop, then he broke the law. Plain and simple. A stop sign is not an optional thing, where you stop if you feel like it. When you come to a stop, you have to stop, plain and simple. Driver's Ed 101. It does not matter whether it is a residential area or a business area or any other kind of area. Stop = stop. Plain and simple. Drivers in California are notorious for rolling through Stop signs, hence the term "California stop" to refer to a roll-by-stop.

Fourth, as G-Benz previously noted, the officer was at that location probably because neighbors had previously complained about drivers, like your father, rolling by and not stopping. I live in a residential area. We have a huge problem with drivers (usually young drivers) rolling through stops and nearly hitting kids or bycicle riders.

Fifth, maybe by enforcing traffic laws officers can catch terrorists before they attack. I am not saying that your father is a terrorist, but imagine a scenario where a terrosrist, distracted with thoughts about hijacking a plane, rolls by a Stop sign (or speeds through a so-called speed trap). An officer stops him and while doing a routine DMV check he realizes that the driver is wanted on suspicion of being a terrorist. Officer nabs him and a terrorist attack is foiled. Sounds incredible? Well, that's what almost happened when a highway trooper stopped one of the 9-11 terrorists for a traffic violation. Unfortunately, however, there were no warrants out ont he guy and so he was let go. But it could have easily gone the other way.

Sixth, there is a simple cure for so-called speed or stop traps. Don't speed and make a full stop. It is really that simple.

Seventh, and I'll stop here. Personally, if I broke the law, and got a ticket, the last thing I'd do is complain about it in front of my kids and therefore encourage disrespect for the law in them. I'd pay the ticket (as long as it was a righteous one and I had not borken the law) and use it as an object lesson to them on the importance of following the rules. Call me old fashioned, but I think America was a far better place in the days when everyone was encouraged to follow and respect the law. I think that our society has suffered a great deal due to the attitude, shared by many, that the laws don't apply to them, that cops are bad for trying to enforce the laws and that everything, and anything, goes as long as they can get away with it.

In my forever to be humble opinion, I think that your dad would be far better off teaching you that there is a price to be paid for breaking the law (even a seemingly minor one) and that cops are not there to try to screw law abiding citizens. The last thing I'd want to see, as a parent, is one of my kids trying to find a way for me to get out of a ticket that I've have righteously earned.

Of course, I also think that if I was Johnny Taliban Walker's dad, I'd give Johnny a swift kick in the butt and use the money that is now going to pay for his defense lawyer to help out some of the victims of 9-11. But hey, that's just me.
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  #11  
Old 02-05-2002, 02:44 PM
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Benz-lgb

...totally agree with that train of thought & philosphy of teaching the children

further, there may be a time(s) when operating a vehicle safely and courteously requires good common sense (where law may not necessarily be the primary reference point)

-fad
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  #12  
Old 02-05-2002, 06:00 PM
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BenZ-LBG,

Frist of all I started this thread because I was asking people to help me find resources to help in the legal defence of my dad.

Since you did a lot of flag waving. I am sure you believe you in the principle of all people is entitle to a proper defense. This is not only a principle but the law.

I am also sure you believe in the principle (also the law) that all is pursumed innocient until proven guilty. You don't have all the fact in the case against my dad. For all you know he could have made a complete stop. Or have you forgotten this principle? Did you say you are some sourt of peace officer??

Lastly my dad taught me to respect the law. I respect the law as a young adult. But the more I saw the real world the more I believe that the law and the law system is tilted against the weak and defenless. This is my humble opinion. In fact my opinion is not a product of my father's teaching, it is the sum of my life experiences.

So what am I to do if I believe this. I make them prove their case. I make them give me due process (also the law) especially if I am the weak or the defenceless. This will give them less ensentive to tilted the law against the weak and defenceless.

Also as citizen it is our duty to make sure the police, leagal system respect the law also. The law and principel of proper defence, prusumtion of innocient, and due process.

So as you could see I do respect the law perhaps more than you. American would be a better place if evenone get a proper defence, prusume innocient until proven guilt, and get due process. How else are we going to insure that the people who enfeoces the law respect the law.

blau,

P.S.

It would be a good thing that you kid try to get you off on a ticket that you properly deserved. Assumming that you are really guilty. Because if he is able to get you off, it means that the police or leagal system is violating or has violated THE LAW.

In most cases people get off who are guilty in general because their due process rights (or law) were violated.

P.P.S

I will respect you request for not using all caps. But I use all caps as the same way as bold and the to me is not yelling. And there are insidences that it is proper to yell. Sometimes it is proper to yell to get a point across another principle and law. Freedom of expression.
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  #13  
Old 02-05-2002, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
It would be a good thing that you kid try to get you off on a ticket that you properly deserved. Assumming that you are really guilty. Because if he is able to get you off, it means that the police or leagal system is violating or has violated THE LAW.
Sorry, that is called anarchy, not law. Getting away with something doesn't mean you are not guilty, just that you were not convicted. And failure to convict doesn't mean the officer/courts broke the law, oppressed you, or deprived you of your rights: it only means they failed to convict a criminal. You still did the crime, all you did was get away with it. This time.

The law isn't perfect. Sometimes in this country the rich, famous, or political elite get away with it. But the 'weak and oppressed' often get away with things as well, as any parole officer, policeman, lawyer, or judge can attest. While it isn't perfect, and sometimes lets people down, it is the most effective defense the weak have (unless you really think Darwin got it all wrong ). Look to any country with weak court systems: The rich, powerful, and politically elite always get away with it, including land theft from poor farmers, murder of political opponents, theft of money from disaster relief government funds, kidnap and rape of juveniles, illegal lumber and mining operations in national forests, people smuggling, slavery, and quite literally piracy on the high seas (several hundred ships, not little private boats, pirated away last year alone).

One last point to ponder. Every successful attempt to get away with a crime, large or small, weakens this legal defense system by destroying trust and confidence in the system.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, law enforcement, probation, etc. professional, just a firm believer that the alternative to order is disorder - laws provide a semblance of order.
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  #14  
Old 02-05-2002, 07:55 PM
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Wow, this stuff is getting kind of intense. Can we all agree that we will try our best to be good, law-abiding citizens? If blau's father did indeed come to a full stop at both signs, then by all means he should do all he can to fight the ticket. However, if he really didn't come to a complete stop, he is guilty and should just pay the fines. Of course, that's common sense, but where I think blau complicated the matter is when he said "he wasn't going that fast anyways", which indicates that his father did indeed roll through the stop. It doesn't matter how fast he was going, blau-- if he doesn't STOP at the STOP sign, then he is breaking the law and deserves the fine.

Court dismissed.

Zach
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  #15  
Old 02-05-2002, 08:00 PM
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I think we should not come to judge Blau's dad without any tangible evidence. All he asked was help in fighting the ticket. He obviously thinks his Dad has a case.

Agreed, all of the above comments about responsibility and accountability are welcome and indeed taken to heart, but none of them actually help. Good luck in fighting the ticket, I hope the outcome is equitable and fair.

Kuan

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