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  #1  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:00 PM
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The other physicists

The NPA's website tells us that the group is devoted "to broad-ranging, fully open-minded criticism, at the most fundamental levels, of the often irrational and unrealistic doctrines of modern physics and cosmology; and to the ultimate replacement of these doctrines by much sounder ideas".

Very little unites this disparate group of amateurs - there are as many theories as members - except for a common belief that "something is drastically wrong in contemporary physics and cosmology, and that a new spirit of open-mindedness is desperately needed". They are unanimous in the view that mainstream physics has been hijacked by a kind of priestly caste who speak a secret language - in other words, mathematics - that is incomprehensible to most human beings. They claim that the natural world speaks a language which all of us can, or should be able to, understand. Rather than having their dialogue with the world mediated by "experts", NPA members insist that they can commune with it directly and describe its patterns in accessible terms.

Regardless of the credibility of this claim, it is sociologically significant. In their militantly egalitarian opposition to what they see as a physics elite, NPA members mirror the stance of Martin Luther and other pioneers of the Protestant Reformation. Luther was rebelling against the abstractions of the Latin-writing Catholic priesthood, and one of his most revolutionary moves was to translate the Bible into vernacular German. Just as Luther declared that all people could read the book of God for themselves, so the NPA today asserts that all of us ought to be able to read the book of nature for ourselves.

Intriguingly more at: Outsider physicists and the oh-my-god particle - opinion - 24 December 2011 - New Scientist

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  #2  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:29 PM
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I read that piece this morning. Not sure if I agree that physics should use non-mathematical language accessible to the average person. Maybe some things can't be captured in everyday language.
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Regardless of the credibility of this claim, it is sociologically significant.
Just another nutjob cult. I really don't see the significance.

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  #4  
Old 01-03-2012, 08:40 PM
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I think the author's last comment is an important one.

Quote: While we may not agree with the answers outsiders give, none of us should be sanguine when some of the greatest fruits of science are unavailable to most of humankind.

If science cannot be effectively communicated in the vernacular, then to believe scientists because they make some assertion or other without an intelligible vernacular explanation, is akin to faith.

The new god and new priests.
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
I think the author's last comment is an important one.

Quote: While we may not agree with the answers outsiders give, none of us should be sanguine when some of the greatest fruits of science are unavailable to most of humankind.

If science cannot be effectively communicated in the vernacular, then to believe scientists because they make some assertion or other without an intelligible vernacular explanation, is akin to faith.

The new god and new priests.
I don't think I agree with that. Just because I don't understand Swahili doesn't mean that there are no other people who can determine whether the Swahili speaker is making sense or not.

Same with the Latin issue. Education becomes more widely available if it's not conducted in a second language but it doesn't mean that faith is necessary, just other Latin speakers.

There may be sociological consequences insofar as the kind of people skilled in advanced Math may share some characteristics not commonly found in the general population but I don't think that translates directly into the view that physics must always be explicible in the vernacular independent of Math.
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  #6  
Old 01-03-2012, 09:21 PM
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I don't think I agree with that. Just because I don't understand Swahili doesn't mean that there are no other people who can determine whether the Swahili speaker is making sense or not.

Same with the Latin issue. Education becomes more widely available if it's not conducted in a second language but it doesn't mean that faith is necessary, just other Latin speakers.

There may be sociological consequences insofar as the kind of people skilled in advanced Math may share some characteristics not commonly found in the general population but I don't think that translates directly into the view that physics must always be explicible in the vernacular independent of Math.
If you and I listen to somebody claiming to speak in swahili and I don't speak swahili than how do I know swahili is being spoken -- because you or he says so? But I don't know if YOU speak swahili. Somewhere in that tangled web an act of faith will occur.
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Old 01-03-2012, 10:12 PM
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I will be happy to read their translation, as long as it's not written in Swahili.

They can translate...can't they???
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  #8  
Old 01-03-2012, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cmbdiesel View Post
I will be happy to read their translation, as long as it's not written in Swahili.

They can translate...can't they???
I used to translate simple botanical descriptions from Spanish into English. It is all verbal with sometimes some simple length measurements. Many of the root terms are Latin, as is the type description of the species. Even so, translation is a PITA. Nuances of language become extremely valuable to maintain. Often more than a few words are necessary to express a simple thought that is succinctly described in one language or the other.

This is the great value of using mathematics as the language of physical sciences. It makes communication among the cognoscenti of different natibe tongues much easier. But it makes communicating with lay people hugely difficult. The language divide builds suspicion or contempt, depending on which side of the barrier we find ourselves. The fundamental goal of scientific publication is to communicate findings. This is increasingly difficult as complexity increases and the incentives are few for a scientist to explain his work to a lay audience.

Thus the priesthood grows.
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  #9  
Old 01-03-2012, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
I used to translate simple botanical descriptions from Spanish into English. It is all verbal with sometimes some simple length measurements. Many of the root terms are Latin, as is the type description of the species. Even so, translation is a PITA. Nuances of language become extremely valuable to maintain. Often more than a few words are necessary to express a simple thought that is succinctly described in one language or the other.

This is the great value of using mathematics as the language of physical sciences. It makes communication among the cognoscenti of different natibe tongues much easier. But it makes communicating with lay people hugely difficult. The language divide builds suspicion or contempt, depending on which side of the barrier we find ourselves. The fundamental goal of scientific publication is to communicate findings. This is increasingly difficult as complexity increases and the incentives are few for a scientist to explain his work to a lay audience.

Thus the priesthood grows.
Point well taken, and can be equally applied to servo's...

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Old 01-04-2012, 07:41 AM
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Are we embarking on the ultimate "dumbing down" to the lowest common denominator?
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  #11  
Old 01-04-2012, 08:13 AM
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It is a bifurcation that has been going on ever since professional scientific and engineering journals began back in the 19th century.

Before that, researchers depended on personal correspondence and prided themselves on maintaining great lists of like-minded researchers to disseminate discoveries and news of other's. This was often rambling, lengthy letters with no standardization of format. However, because they were not succinct, they were highly readable.

Gradually, professional journals came into being. At first they were often chatty and speculative. But as page costs increased, chattiness decreased. Also, readers wanted to get to the 'heart of the matter' and not be distracted by chatty speculation. Eventually the present-day, highly stylized journal articles arrived, only read by the most dedicated subscribers. Few lay people would be interested in taking the time to decipher the dry, often poorly written professional articles.

But take heart, scientific publication is undergoing a revolution due to the internet. There is a growing movement of new pubs with very low, or no page costs. I have noted (especially in the natural history type stuff) an increase in descriptive text and an increase in general readability. May this trend continue,e xpand, and overtake the professional print journals! Plus, my cheapest print journal costs me $130/year. Tax deductible, but golly, how many can I subscribe to? 3. That's it for me. Wish I could take 2-3 more but a man's gotta eat.
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
It is a bifurcation that has been going on ever since professional scientific and engineering journals began back in the 19th century.

Before that, researchers depended on personal correspondence and prided themselves on maintaining great lists of like-minded researchers to disseminate discoveries and news of other's. This was often rambling, lengthy letters with no standardization of format. However, because they were not succinct, they were highly readable.

Gradually, professional journals came into being. At first they were often chatty and speculative. But as page costs increased, chattiness decreased. Also, readers wanted to get to the 'heart of the matter' and not be distracted by chatty speculation. Eventually the present-day, highly stylized journal articles arrived, only read by the most dedicated subscribers. Few lay people would be interested in taking the time to decipher the dry, often poorly written professional articles.

But take heart, scientific publication is undergoing a revolution due to the internet. There is a growing movement of new pubs with very low, or no page costs. I have noted (especially in the natural history type stuff) an increase in descriptive text and an increase in general readability. May this trend continue,e xpand, and overtake the professional print journals! Plus, my cheapest print journal costs me $130/year. Tax deductible, but golly, how many can I subscribe to? 3. That's it for me. Wish I could take 2-3 more but a man's gotta eat.
Social scientific, philosophy, and social critical journals are much of the same. Some of the stuff I read is intentionally heady and thick. I never really understood that in articles because it's almost intentional deception or elitism. However I also know that a lot of the authors would argue that they use complicated and nuanced language simply because "ordinary" language (if you will) does not adequately capture their theories. When it takes phd or advanced masters level reading to understand a somewhat simple point, it's annoying more than anything.
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  #13  
Old 01-04-2012, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by tbomachines View Post
Social scientific, philosophy, and social critical journals are much of the same. Some of the stuff I read is intentionally heady and thick. I never really understood that in articles because it's almost intentional deception or elitism. However I also know that a lot of the authors would argue that they use complicated and nuanced language simply because "ordinary" language (if you will) does not adequately capture their theories. When it takes phd or advanced masters level reading to understand a somewhat simple point, it's annoying more than anything.
X2 on this. I was thinking of the role of mathematics in science and not well written English.
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  #14  
Old 01-04-2012, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbomachines View Post
Social scientific, philosophy, and social critical journals are much of the same. Some of the stuff I read is intentionally heady and thick. I never really understood that in articles because it's almost intentional deception or elitism. However I also know that a lot of the authors would argue that they use complicated and nuanced language simply because "ordinary" language (if you will) does not adequately capture their theories. When it takes phd or advanced masters level reading to understand a somewhat simple point, it's annoying more than anything.
Hasn't the purpose of jargon ALWAYS been to keep the uninitiated ignorant, and to promote the "elite"--whether that elite is social, or technical in nature?
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:27 PM
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Im not sure why someones quality of life is jeopardized by the fact they do not understand the mathmatics of multiple dimensions or that a quark spins left or right. If they cant understand the math and they have an interest why not go to school and learn the math. to me its akin to ebonics........ they dont have to agree, but they do need to be able to communicate and provide proofs for ideas, they skoff at the elitist mathmaticians but likely their ideas will not stand up to scrutiny and they just think it is because they are outsiders

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