Circuit Breaker help - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

TMAllison · #1 03-17-2012, 04:49 PM

Have been having a problem with an Espresso machine that burns up toggle switches a couple of times a year. I replace them and am good to go for 3 or 4 months. The problem is in the espresso machine I believe.

It fried the electrical outlet today that it and the coffee grinder were plugged into. Burned two big holes in the face both outlet plug-ins where the black wire connects. There is a green ground, white, red and black wire. I think red may go to an adjacent light switch or perhaps feed other outlets down the lenght of the wall?

Turned off 2 - 20amp breakers (4 switches total) finding that switch 1B and 2A controlled the outlets on that end of the house and repalced the burnt outlet with one identical to the original. Turned 1B (controlling outlet) back on and everything was fine. Turned on 2A (controls a separate group of outlets) and it arc's and blows 1B adjacent to it. 1A and 2B arent affected.

I can reset 1B and all plugs including my newly installed one work properly.

Walked around the entire house with an electric radio and every single outlet and inside and out works.

Whenever I try to reset 2A it arcs and trips 1B. 1B can always be reset. 2A remains off.

Can anyone figure out whats going on with breaker 2A from the above description?

cmac2012 · #2 03-17-2012, 05:37 PM

The only thing that pops to mind is that the circuit perhaps should have a 15 amp and not a 20. I've seen people put 20 amp breakers on 14 ga. wire circuits. What amperage are the espresso machine and grinder rated at? Of course, you'd have to be using them both at the same time for the combined amperage to mean anything. The wrong amperage might (the word is might) explain burning the receptacle but it wouldn't explain the toggle switches on the machine.

If you can plug it into some circuit that has nothing else on it might be useful to see if the thing is worth keeping. Might be a faulty unit.

10fords · #3 03-17-2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMAllison

Have been having a problem with an Espresso machine that burns up toggle switches a couple of times a year. I replace them and am good to go for 3 or 4 months. The problem is in the espresso machine I believe.

It fried the electrical outlet today that it and the coffee grinder were plugged into. Burned two big holes in the face both outlet plug-ins where the black wire connects. There is a green ground, white, red and black wire. I think red may go to an adjacent light switch or perhaps feed other outlets down the lenght of the wall?

Turned off 2 - 20amp breakers (4 switches total) finding that switch 1B and 2A controlled the outlets on that end of the house and repalced the burnt outlet with one identical to the original. Turned 1B (controlling outlet) back on and everything was fine. Turned on 2A (controls a separate group of outlets) and it arc's and blows 1B adjacent to it. 1A and 2B arent affected.

I can reset 1B and all plugs including my newly installed one work properly.

Walked around the entire house with an electric radio and every single outlet and inside and out works.

Whenever I try to reset 2A it arcs and trips 1B. 1B can always be reset. 2A remains off.

Can anyone figure out whats going on with breaker 2A from the above description?

I believe what you have is a three wire circuit that is somehow getting contact between the 2 hots. are the red and black wires going to the same receptacle? The burnt recep indicates a poor connection and the high amperage of the espresso machine will exacerbate that quickly. It's too hard to give you an exact diagnosis on the forum, but if you want to PM me your # I'll call you and see if I can walk you through it. I'm in Calif. as well. Good luck-Scott

TMAllison · #4 03-17-2012, 07:02 PM

The espresso machaine is probably 10 amps (has a heater and elect pump) and the grinder is probably 2-4. Both are a guess. If its stated anywhere its not evident.

1B with the expresso machine and grinder is working fine. 2A is the problem. Its tripped, but every outlet, light switch and fixture works. I'm not understanding why resetting 2A trips 1B below it.

The panel is original and to my eye the fuses also. It may have been upgraded 20 yers ago when AC was installed. Blue is 15, Red 20, Green 30 and Gray 40amps.

Circuit Breaker help-img00025-20120317-1552.jpg

10fords · #5 03-17-2012, 07:28 PM

I'm assuming you are starting at the bottom left breaker as 1 and above it is 2. The reason resetting 2a trips 1b is because they are on opposite phases and if you somehow connect them together it is a dead short. 1b is backfeeding 2a so that is why everything is working. are you sure you wired the recep you replaced properly? The fact that there is a red and black in the recep box usually means it is a 3 wire circuit, or possibly a switched recep. if it is a switched recep(unlikely in a kitchen counter) does it possibly have a dimmer? that is a no-no! If you take the dead front off the breaker panel I bet you will see 2a and 1b have a red and black pair of wires going to them, and if you take the one off 1b you will be able to reset 2a, but 1b will now be hot! Since you worked on the recep, my bet is that you miswired something in that box, and tied the black and red together.

TMAllison · #6 03-17-2012, 07:41 PM

Thank you for the explanation. The espresso machine is on a bar top in the kitchen but the outlet is actually in the family room on the other sie of the bartop. No dimmers or anything.

I clipped the wires off the old outlet 1/8" long so they still had insulation and color on them then installed the new outlet to match.

I'll take it apart again in the morning and confirm that for the 3rd time.

10fords · #7 03-17-2012, 07:47 PM

Terry- did the old recep have the red wire(s) attached to it? And, did you have the breaker tripping problem before you replaced the recep?-Scott

catmandoo62 · #8 03-17-2012, 08:23 PM

outlet testers are about 3 bucks and can save alot of headaches.

rog-o · #9 03-17-2012, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 10fords

I believe what you have is a three wire circuit that is somehow getting contact between the 2 hots. are the red and black wires going to the same receptacle?

I agree with 10fords. If the black and red were connected to the old receptacle, look at it and see if the tab was disconnected between the 2 outlets.

The Clk Man · #10 03-17-2012, 08:59 PM

I have a similar problem, in my t.v room, the wall switch that turns the ceiling fan/light on and off acts odd. Sometimes when I turn the switch off the light stays on and the switch makes an odd popping sound. Bad switch? loose wire?

TMAllison · #11 03-17-2012, 09:37 PM

Scott and Rog-O - The breakers feeding each other, and the "tab" business on the outlet was the problem.

Turned breaker 1b off, found and broke off a tab and life is good again.

Thanks to both for your help. Much appreciated.

Bio300TDTdriver · #12 03-17-2012, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMAllison

Scott and Rog-O - The breakers feeding each other, and the "tab" business on the outlet was the problem.

Turned the 1b off, found and broke off a tab and life is good again.

Thanks to both for your help. Much appreciated.

If that keeps happening to the outlet, I would use an outlet that is rated for 20 amps instead of the 15 amp ones.

So when you wired it, the red wire goes to the gold screw on the top or bottom the black wire goes to the other gold screw. The opposite side should both be white which is the neutral, no need to break the tab on that side. The ground is hooked to the green wire on the top or bottom of the outlet, correct?

TMAllison · #13 03-17-2012, 10:42 PM

Your wire layout is correct. Red top/black bottom.

I've had the espresso machine and grinder for 10 years. Its a single group Rancillo S24 110V model thats hard plumbed and drained.

The on/off toggle switch burns out on one of four terminal a few times a year and I replace them. They are 4300 each I keep a few on hand. No burnt wires anywhere in the machine.

This is the first time the outlet (I guess its actually called a receptical) has been damaged. Burned two holes in the face of it on the Black/Red side of the two outlets. I've owned the home for 22 years.

In hindsight, the original outlet was not constructed with top and bottom connected. Teh new one was, hence the problem with the 2nd circuit breaker tripping yet everything still working.

Bio300TDTdriver · #14 03-18-2012, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMAllison

Your wire layout is correct. Red top/black bottom.

I've had the espresso machine and grinder for 10 years. Its a single group Rancillo S24 110V model thats hard plumbed and drained.

The on/off toggle switch burns out on one of four terminal a few times a year and I replace them. They are 4300 each I keep a few on hand. No burnt wires anywhere in the machine.

This is the first time the outlet (I guess its actually called a receptical) has been damaged. Burned two holes in the face of it on the Black/Red side of the two outlets. I've owned the home for 22 years.

In hindsight, the original outlet was not constructed with top and bottom connected. Teh new one was, hence the problem with the 2nd circuit breaker tripping yet everything still working.

So the toggle switch that dies is on the espresso machine. It is interesting that they fed the receptacle with two different feeds. Are the breakers that protect those both 20 amp breakers?

jplinville · #15 03-18-2012, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Clk Man

I have a similar problem, in my t.v room, the wall switch that turns the ceiling fan/light on and off acts odd. Sometimes when I turn the switch off the light stays on and the switch makes an odd popping sound. Bad switch? loose wire?

Bad switch...