Sarkozy and the EU - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #1 05-08-2012, 03:52 AM

Intersting article in the American Conservative:

Rod Dreher » The EU and the Somme

In his new reflection on the French presidential election, Adam Gopnik has a great line about Nicolas Sarkozy:

"People will forgive a short man with a beautiful wife if he seems sufficiently surprised; Sarkozy seemed merely showy, and his energy, over time, merely antic and self-pleasing."

Gopnik’s essay contains a challenge to conservatives like me, who reflexively dislike the European Union as a federalized superstate that exists to denature and defeat the local and the particular in Europe. It’s also a threat to sovereignty. I dislike the EU for all the reasons you would expect a conservative to dislike the EU. And yet … here’s Gopnik:

"In thinking about Europe and its union, the number that one needs to keep in mind is not the rate of the euro exchange or the measure of the Greek deficit but a simpler one, of sixty million.

"That is the approximate (and probably understated) number of Europeans killed in the thirty years between 1914 and 1945, victims of wars of competing nationalisms on a tragically divided continent. The truth needs re-stating: social democracy in Europe, embodied by its union, has been one of the greatest successes in history. Like all successes, it can seem exasperatingly commonplace. There is something uninspiring about the compromises and the dailiness of a happy marriage, and something compelling about one that is coming apart: it looks more like the due fate of all things. Yet the truth ought to remain central. A continent torn by the two most horrible wars in history achieved a remarkable half century of peace and prosperity, based on a marriage of liberalism properly so called (individual freedoms, including the entrepreneurial kind) and socialism rightly so ordered (as an equitable care for the common good). Any pleasure taken in the failure of Europe to expunge all its demons threatens to become one more way of not having to examine our own. A mild-mannered, European-minded citizen king [Francois Hollande, the twerpish Socialist candidate for president of France -- RD] is, at least, better than a passionately convinced exceptionalist. France, and Europe, learned that lesson the hard way."

Jim B. · #2 05-08-2012, 06:20 AM

The quoted author appears to have omitted mentioning the results of the wide-open immigration policies of Western Europe:

Unlimited admission of Islamic refugee immigration, with an unbelievably staggerigly high birth rate; an utter unwillingness to assimilate in any meaningful way into their new country; living in utterly segregated neighborhoods in many cases, and refusing in many cases to try and learn the klanguage of their host country; a concommitant rise in religious inspired violence by them, their refusal to abandon their shocking native dress codes on the street and in schools and elsewhere, and their eventual use of voting rights to overwhelm the govenments of their host countries with their numbers into elected parliament with adherents of a religion TOTALLY at odds with the laws, customs and punishments of their adopted host country.

These are NOT always "benign" fears either - incidents like Theo Van Gogh's murder in Belgium, the death threats over "blasphemous" Danish cartoons, the blonde Swedish teenagers being raped in Stockholm by Islamic youths "because they were all whores anyway" and so on and so on prove it.

I think these fears are in fact well founded (based on some of the conversations I have had in countries ranging from Norway to England and France in my travels) and are grist for the popularity of the rising far right and anti immigration political tide in Western Europe.

(Though my friend in Oslo, Steinar, made a attempt at light humor about it: "Well, they DO like Mecedes Benzes too, but all they can afford are the old w124 ones!")

cmac2012 · #3 05-08-2012, 02:53 PM

^ ^ That is an uncomfortable scenario. Not sure what will turn it around. Except maybe serious conflict. And that would be unlikely to bring any sort of resolution.

pj67coll · #4 05-08-2012, 04:01 PM

Interesting essay. Not certain I agree completely with his attribution to the 50 years of peace as being the result of the great "european project". Daniell Hannan has pointed out the absurdity of the continued reason for the existance of the European project to stop another war. Referring to Germany he pointed out "If we don't keep on bailing out Greece we'll find ourselves invading Poland".

Reality I think has moved on beyond that.

Peter Hitchens wrote an interesting piece recently that comments on this issue as well, though I'm not sure I agree with his central conclusion as well. Still, it's worth reading.

Mail Online - Peter Hitchens blog

The one dated May 07th. Bread and wine versus Blood and Iron.

- Peter.

LaRondo · #5 05-08-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Intersting article in the American Conservative:

Rod Dreher » The EU and the Somme

In his new reflection on the French presidential election, Adam Gopnik has a great line about Nicolas Sarkozy:

"People will forgive a short man with a beautiful wife if he seems sufficiently surprised; Sarkozy seemed merely showy, and his energy, over time, merely antic and self-pleasing."

Gopnik’s essay contains a challenge to conservatives like me, who reflexively dislike the European Union as a federalized superstate that exists to denature and defeat the local and the particular in Europe. It’s also a threat to sovereignty. I dislike the EU for all the reasons you would expect a conservative to dislike the EU. And yet … here’s Gopnik:

"In thinking about Europe and its union, the number that one needs to keep in mind is not the rate of the euro exchange or the measure of the Greek deficit but a simpler one, of sixty million.

"That is the approximate (and probably understated) number of Europeans killed in the thirty years between 1914 and 1945, victims of wars of competing nationalisms on a tragically divided continent. The truth needs re-stating: social democracy in Europe, embodied by its union, has been one of the greatest successes in history. Like all successes, it can seem exasperatingly commonplace. There is something uninspiring about the compromises and the dailiness of a happy marriage, and something compelling about one that is coming apart: it looks more like the due fate of all things. Yet the truth ought to remain central. A continent torn by the two most horrible wars in history achieved a remarkable half century of peace and prosperity, based on a marriage of liberalism properly so called (individual freedoms, including the entrepreneurial kind) and socialism rightly so ordered (as an equitable care for the common good). Any pleasure taken in the failure of Europe to expunge all its demons threatens to become one more way of not having to examine our own. A mild-mannered, European-minded citizen king [Francois Hollande, the twerpish Socialist candidate for president of France -- RD] is, at least, better than a passionately convinced exceptionalist. France, and Europe, learned that lesson the hard way."

Sarkozy was never regarded a "high profile" influential politician or leader for that matter.
The essay is mostly yesterday's snow. Except this one line:

"Any pleasure taken in the failure of Europe to expunge all its demons threatens to become one more way of not having to examine our own."

Although, he remains vague to who he is referring to.

LaRondo · #6 05-08-2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj67coll

Interesting essay. Not certain I agree completely with his attribution to the 50 years of peace as being the result of the great "european project". Daniell Hannan has pointed out the absurdity of the continued reason for the existance of the European project to stop another war. Referring to Germany he pointed out "If we don't keep on bailing out Greece we'll find ourselves invading Poland".

Reality I think has moved on beyond that.

Peter Hitchens wrote an interesting piece recently that comments on this issue as well, though I'm not sure I agree with his central conclusion as well. Still, it's worth reading.

Mail Online - Peter Hitchens blog

The one dated May 07th. Bread and wine versus Blood and Iron.

- Peter.

Much of the usual Mary-go-round.

There is one noteworthy paragraph. Esp. people in US should get that into their system:

By the way, these German aims pre-existed Hitler and were held to by democratic and respectable German statesmen, including some of the July plotters who sought to assassinate Hitler and overthrow the Nazi state. They should not be confused with the National Socialist polices of extermination and racial murder with which they became entangled after 1933.

Interesting is the newly flared up Anti-German attitude, which of course is consistent throughout history.

It's very similar to Anti-semitism, yet way more subtle and aided in it's nourishment by the fact that Germans don't give a fraction of the (insert pleep) in regards to what 3. parties think about them.

I can almost see it in the stars. If things go bad in Europe, the "blame card" will go to Germany again.

It's pretty sick and directly connected to the quoted line above.

Pooka · #7 05-08-2012, 07:32 PM

Republicans used to be all over the old saying 'You can't save your way into prosperity'. Now they are all over cutting spending and saving every dime.

Glenn Beck (Yes, he is still out there) is currently preaching you can't borrow your way into prosperity. Apparently he is unaware of the concept of 'Buying with credit and Selling for cash' which is how every successful business I am aware of has worked. Even in my old age I am playing with this concept and it is paying off with an average ROI of 260%, so perhaps Beck needs to reconsider this line of reasoning.

The art of government is to take what you have and balance your spending against what is needed for the governed to function. This 'art' of cutting spending and then cutting taxes is not an art; it is a terribly stupid way of running an economy. How can you grow anything if you keep cutting it back?

And the whole 'people keeping their own money thing' sounds great except that if the government has no money to repair infrastructure then the chances of those that are keeping the money they were paying in taxes of repairing the infrastructure is zero.

A case in point: In Oklahoma taxes on oil companies have been cut to the bone. Taxes on everyone else have stayed the same. But I do not drive a truck that weighs 80,000 pounds over bridges and roads that are maintained by the county and the oil companies do. So now the question is not who pays for the bridges because the answer is who pays the taxes? If the answer is no one then good-bye roads and bridges!

I don't mind paying more taxes if that means keeping more oil jobs in this area. A rising tide lifts all boats, but as drillers pull out of an area because the area has no road access then a falling tide takes us all down with it.

The French and the Greeks have seen the wonders of trying to save your way to prosperity and they are through with this failed experiment. The only path to prosperity is production and exports. Even the Phoenicians knew this.

If you like small, as in no, government then move to Sudan or Chad. You will love the place. Both countries are funded by oil production. There are no taxes and there are no government services except for the military which is used to keep the population in line.

But if you do need something that a government provides, such as a road, break out the cash because you will get to pay for it yourself.

But you will never have to pay any taxes!

Botnst · #8 05-08-2012, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

...
Interesting is the newly flared up Anti-German attitude, which of course is consistent throughout history.

It's very similar to Anti-semitism, yet way more subtle and aided in it's nourishment by the fact that Germans don't give a fraction of the (insert pleep) in regards to what 3. parties think about them.

I can almost see it in the stars. If things go bad in Europe, the "blame card" will go to Germany again.

It's pretty sick and directly connected to the quoted line above.

Pity the Germans. The poor dears are so oppressed.

LaRondo · #9 05-08-2012, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Pity the Germans. The poor dears are so oppressed.

Reality is a thorn in many people's eyes. This of course blurs the vision dramatically, especially when the view is exclusively one-sided.

Botnst · #10 05-08-2012, 09:59 PM

No doubt.

pj67coll · #11 05-08-2012, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Interesting is the newly flared up Anti-German attitude, which of course is consistent throughout history.

It's very similar to Anti-semitism, yet way more subtle and aided in it's nourishment by the fact that Germans don't give a fraction of the (insert pleep) in regards to what 3. parties think about them.

I can almost see it in the stars. If things go bad in Europe, the "blame card" will go to Germany again.

It's pretty sick and directly connected to the quoted line above.

Yes, well jealously will always fester just below the surface. Simple reality is that Germans are the most successful europeans. If the rest of europe were like the Germans there probably wouldn't be a problem in Europe now.

- Peter.

retmil46 · #12 05-09-2012, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Yet the truth ought to remain central. A continent torn by the two most horrible wars in history achieved a remarkable half century of peace and prosperity, based on a marriage of liberalism properly so called (individual freedoms, including the entrepreneurial kind) and socialism rightly so ordered (as an equitable care for the common good).

On the face of it, I'd have to call Mr Gopnik's essay a load of revisionist horsecrap.

That little episode of history known as the Cold War, that lasted for 45 of the 50 quoted years, was the key reason the Europeans didn't engage in any inter-country squabbles during that time. Kinda hard, when you've got the armies of two opposing superpowers - replete with nuclear weapons - camped out in the middle of your backyard - and everyone's interested in maintaining low tones to keep things from boiling over into a third and final war.