Dieselheads Rejoice - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

rs899 · #1 05-09-2012, 08:55 AM

Turning natural gas into diesel fuel - May. 9, 2012

Quote:

An apology to most American motorists: The process cannot easily produce gasoline.

...snicker

layback40 · #2 05-09-2012, 09:03 AM

This is a very inefficient process. It is far better to use nat gas injection to a diesel.

gatorblue92 · #3 05-09-2012, 09:09 AM

Very cool. I didn't even know it was possible to do the conversion.

rs899 · #4 05-09-2012, 09:12 AM

only works if you are upside down.....

SwampYankee · #5 05-09-2012, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

This is a very inefficient process. It is far better to use nat gas injection to a diesel.

Can't be as inefficient as converting corn to ethanol.

disley · #6 05-09-2012, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

This is a very inefficient process. It is far better to use nat gas injection to a diesel.

What's stopping trucks from converting to natural gas, or using diesel and liquefied natural gas.

JB3 · #7 05-09-2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by disley

What's stopping trucks from converting to natural gas, or using diesel and liquefied natural gas.

efficiency.

You burn more to go less.

From a standpoint of investment to do the conversion, investment into the technology, and now your truck doesn't go as far and it costs more to run the truck, doesn't make much sense for industry owners

Hatterasguy · #8 05-09-2012, 10:37 AM

Yeah but who wants to own a modern diesel? The EPA has all but killed them, the new ones are so complicated and choked with emissions gear.

strelnik · #9 05-09-2012, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

Can't be as inefficient as converting corn to ethanol.

I don't understand why it can't be used directly, as the CNG vehicles do. Every time you "convert" you expend energy, loses energy, increase cost and pollute more.

I still think that America should develop a vehicle that runs on &ull$h!t and we would have an infinite, easily exportable supply of fuel, just from a single session of Congress!

retmil46 · #10 05-09-2012, 01:53 PM

These guys have already invented a simpler, cheaper process - and are already selling fuel out in Nevada -

Advanced Refining Concepts, LLC is committed to providing clean, domestically produced energy and new U.S. based manufacturing jobs.

Last word I saw, in an article in Diesel World 2 years ago, they could combine a gallon of regular diesel and a half-gallon energy equivalent of natural gas, and end up getting 1 1/2 gallons of "synthetic" diesel out. Process operates at 10 psi and 300 F, and uses the waste products from the process itself to help power the process. Modular refining units are small enough to be transported on a flat bed tractor-trailer.

Diesel World people tested 50 gallons of their fuel in a Dodge Cummins that had been averaging 18 mpg - and ended up averaging almost 22 mpg.

Motor Trend article from last year -

GDiesel: a Breakthrough in Diesel Fuel - Motor Trend

Here's the Diesel World article from 2 years ago -

http://www.advancedrefiningconcepts.com/DW-1004-FUEL%20final.pdf

SwampYankee · #11 05-09-2012, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

I don't understand why it can't be used directly, as the CNG vehicles do. Every time you "convert" you expend energy, loses energy, increase cost and pollute more.

I still think that America should develop a vehicle that runs on &ull$h!t and we would have an infinite, easily exportable supply of fuel, just from a single session of Congress!

Don't go throwing logic into this discussion!

They might be good for something, then.

retmil46 · #12 05-09-2012, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

I don't understand why it can't be used directly, as the CNG vehicles do. Every time you "convert" you expend energy, loses energy, increase cost and pollute more.

I still think that America should develop a vehicle that runs on &ull$h!t and we would have an infinite, easily exportable supply of fuel, just from a single session of Congress!

Two words - energy density. You have to have CNG tanks on board a vehicle capable of holding a couple thousand psi at least to store enough CNG to give the vehicle a reasonable range. Then you have to use energy to compress the NG up to that high a pressure to refuel the vehicle.

Then you'd have to spend literally trillions of dollars over decades to develop a refueling infrastructure that's anywhere close to being as readily available as that we already have for liquid gasoline and diesel - not to mention converting hundreds of millions of vehicles to use CNG.

This way - converting the fuel into a liquid form - you can use the existing infrastructure - and it can be used in any vehicle currently on the road that burns gasoline or diesel.

As far as a vehicle that runs on BS or hot air - would never be allowed - then the politicians in DC would have to tax THEMSELVES for being fuel producers!!

rscurtis · #13 05-09-2012, 05:45 PM

Another option that I'm surprised doesn't get more press is the idea of dual fuel OTR trucks- using NG as the primary fuel with the diesel providing pilot ignition. With the modern engine controls available, the truck could revert to full diesel operation long enough to get to the next NG filling station when necessary. Even just a 50 gallon diesel tank would give a big rig a 300 mile range, and fuel use for pilot ignition would be similar to fuel consumption at idle speed.

As you mentioned, the GTL process would negate the need for the infrastructure that we can't afford anyway- we're broke.

Pooka · #14 05-09-2012, 07:34 PM

The oil company I retired from figured out how to do this about 40 years ago. The economics of the thing just made no sense at the time.

We had a lot of stationary diesels, ALCO's, that we started on diesel and then ran on NG after they warmed up. Or they could just run on diesel. It just depended on what was cheaper at the time.

Since we owned our own gas field it was cheaper for us to just use raw gas right out of the ground, but not everyone has this option.

retmil46 · #15 05-10-2012, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis

Another options that I'm surprised doesn't get more press is the idea of dual fuel OTR trucks- using NG as the primary fuel with the diesel providing pilot ignition. With the modern engine controls available, the truck could revert to full diesel operation long enough to get to the next NG filling station when necessary. Even just a 50 gallon diesel tank would give a big rig a 300 mile range, and fuel use for pilot ignition would be similar to fuel consumption at idle speed.

Funny you should mention that. One of the two places I worked at while in TX was operating the two central thermal energy plants for the UTSA campus. At the older plant, built in the late 70's, they had a Delaval Enterprise 4500 HP dual fuel generator, 3 1/2 megawatts, nuclear grade (same model they used as backup in nuke power plants). They used it to power two chiller units, 3000 ton and 2000 ton respectively, during the summer to cut down on the electric bill. And guess who got tasked with being the lead on keeping that beast operating.

Big 8 cylinder inline beast, 35,000 cubic inch. You could run it on any mixture from straight diesel to 95% NG/5% diesel - just enough diesel for pilot injection to light off the NG. At full power in the "full gas" fuel setting, it would burn as little as 10 gallons of diesel per hour while kicking out 4500 HP.

Beast was designed back in the 50's - no electronics whatsoever - PNEUMATIC LOGIC CIRCUITS!!!! All the controls on it were operated by pneumatics, hydraulics, or mechanical linkage - and it worked like a charm.

For gawd's sake, if they could make it work that well over 60 years ago, imagine what they could do with the electronic controls available today.

The engineers that designed that beast, back in the days of slide rules, were true engineers in every sense of the word - and from what I saw of that engine, have my utmost respect.