Holocaust museum/memorial - Page 9 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

elchivito · #**121** 05-23-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Case in point, although in South America are the Mayan, Aztec, and Inca.

All three were neolithic civilisations, and all three were Empires built by extensive conquest, but there was not a whole lot of contact among them.
The Mayans predated the Aztecs: their civilisation had declined before the Aztecs conquered Tenochtitlan quite far to the north.
And the Incas centered in Peru.

The Mayans lived in the Mexican area, and extended into Guatemala.
The Aztec in the Central America area.
The Inca lived on the west coast of South America, around the Andes Mountain/Peru area.
The Olmec were the ancestors of the Mayans-but they all fell around the same time period.

In terms of the North American Indians, I would not feel as comfortable trusting the White mans historical accounts, as much as I would trust the historical accounts of the Tribes themselves that have been passed down through the generations.

What is needed is historical/Anthropoligical research that is current, which looks to be available in the form of the books 1491&1493, that were mentioned by two members here that have read 1491.

Until I have read this new research, I do not feel qualified to speak on this subject,as most of my knowledge was learned from the white mans history books. So I will defer to those two gentlemen who have read the book. Perhaps they can answer your questions/statements.

The Aztec were centered in the Valley of Mexico and are thought to have been an amalgam of tribes from the north, not South or Central America. The Mayan heartland is S. Mexico and Guatemala. Your chronology is basically correct however.

JB3 · #**122** 05-23-2012, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

The Aztec were centered in the Valley of Mexico and are thought to have been an amalgam of tribes from the north, not South or Central America. The Mayan heartland is S. Mexico and Guatemala. Your chronology is basically correct however.

Where were the Olmecs in this, preceding the Aztecs? Is it possible the Aztec's were the result of conquest of the Olmec?

LaRondo · #**123** 05-23-2012, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

well, we now know what Eisenhower would think of LaRondo. Nice to know that in this instance if no other that I share something with Ike.

Congratulations!

"God, I hate the Germans..." (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife in September, 1944)

davidmash · #**124** 05-23-2012, 01:01 PM

Something else offered to me. There is no evidence to the contrary. There is evidence that it happened and there are those who deny that the evidence is accurate. There is no evidence that it did not happen. There is no evidence that the death camps did not exist. There is no evidence that the had chambers which are still there did not exist. There is no evidence that the 6 million Jews and millions of others who at one time lived were not murdered. There is no evidence.that the logs and records.kept by the Nazis wbixh still exist did not exists.

Botnst · #**125** 05-23-2012, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Congratulations!

"God, I hate the Germans..." (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife in September, 1944)

Read what I wrote.

retmil46 · #**126** 05-23-2012, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

well, we now know what Eisenhower would think of LaRondo. Nice to know that in this instance if no other that I share something with Ike.

I had thought of connecting the dots myself, but a last-minute bout of civility caused me to exercise restraint.

My thanks for completing the unfinished thought, former naval person.

chilcutt · #**127** 05-23-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Chilly, I think with this thread you have a pretty good display of the lopsided incarnation pertaining to your OP question.

"When the last tree has been cut down. When the last river has been poisoned. The White man will realise that he cannot eat money"-Chief White Cloud

LaRondo · #**128** 05-23-2012, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Read what I wrote.

Read what I posted.

JB3 · #**129** 05-23-2012, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Congratulations!

"God, I hate the Germans..." (Dwight David Eisenhower in a letter to his wife in September, 1944)

I know this thread is kind of devolving here, but im not sure i understand exactly where you stand on this.

You are saying, or have said that accounts of the "final solution" are misrepresented.

Does this mean you believe or don't believe it happened? you haven't said specifically.

What exactly do you believe? That it was less than it was? more than it was? the whole thing was a lie? ect.

Its hard to tell exactly from your posts, leading to possible misunderstanding and confrontation, IE how things are unfolding

EDIT: so I just read through all your comments, and the gist of what I get is that you believe that there is too much apology and focus in North America for the Holocaust, and not enough credit is given to equal atrocities towards Native Americans. Additionally, you question whether many accounts are in fact accurate, or are a exaggeration of something that the German people have been made to pay for already. Is this accurate?

the thread is devolving into personal attack and one upping, and perhaps a clear statement of where you stand may return it to a calm discussion of beliefs, instead of what I think is happening now, which seems to be rage based on misunderstanding

elchivito · #**130** 05-23-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

Where were the Olmecs in this, preceding the Aztecs? Is it possible the Aztec's were the result of conquest of the Olmec?

They predate both the Aztec and Maya. New investigations are tending to suggest that they had significant influence over the development of both those other cultures.

chilcutt · #**131** 05-23-2012, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

They predate both the Aztec and Maya. New investigations are tending to suggest that they had significant influence over the development of both those other cultures.

The Nahua peoples began to migrate into Mesoamerica from Northern Mexico, in the sixth century. As the former nomadic hunter-gatherer peoples mixed with the complex civilisations of Mesoamerica, adopting religious and cultural practices the foundation for the later Aztec coulture was laid.
The Aztec empire was a tribute empire based in Teochtitlan, which extended its power in the late post-classic period. It originated in 1427 as a triple alliance between the city-states Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Tiacopon.
The Aztecs were decended from the Mexicas who arrived in 1248.

I havent found info on the Olmec's yet.

LaRondo · #**132** 05-23-2012, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

I know this thread is kind of devolving here, but im not sure i understand exactly where you stand on this.

You are saying, or have said that accounts of the "final solution" are misrepresented.

Does this mean you believe or don't believe it happened? you haven't said specifically.

What exactly do you believe? That it was less than it was? more than it was? the whole thing was a lie? ect.

Its hard to tell exactly from your posts, leading to possible misunderstanding and confrontation, IE how things are unfolding

EDIT: so I just read through all your comments, and the gist of what I get is that you believe that there is too much apology and focus in North America for the Holocaust, and not enough credit is given to equal atrocities towards Native Americans. Additionally, you question whether many accounts are in fact accurate, or are a exaggeration of something that the German people have been made to pay for already. Is this accurate?

the thread is devolving into personal attack and one upping, and perhaps a clear statement of where you stand may return it to a calm discussion of beliefs, instead of what I think is happening now, which seems to be rage based on misunderstanding

I appreciate your effort in accurately assessing the developments throughout this thread.
You are correct in the first paragraph of your edit.

It was foreseeable, the thread would run off into a certain direction. For that matter I have given the input I gave, not without awareness that it will arouse emotions even more. A risk you have to take.

In my view the thread displays well, "The Holocaust Culture" is deeply and successfully hardwired into the American conscience.
As such it aids as leverage to justify, reduce, belittle or even negate/nullify any other crime against humanity, incl. crimes inflicted during the course of imperial conquest by any applicable entity.
The "Holocaust Culture" as it presents itself, is absolutely unique to the North American society.

I purposely stay generic. It makes no difference how accurate one displays details. Confrontation on this subject is inevitable, regardless.

The OP would have suggested to remain neutral on the topic or better to provide insight into the many aspects of the fate of American Indians, North American Indians in particular, with emphasis on the fact that this atrocity took place on the soil of this continent. A domestic predicament.

A couple of specifics.
To my knowledge there is no authentic, written or otherwise credible evidence that "The Final Solution" was ordered by Hitler personally or otherwise a record for an order given thru the Reichskanzlei in Berlin.

The numbers esp. at Auschwitz have been officially adjusted downward in the recent past. A fact that escapes the mind of many.

retmil46 · #**133** 05-23-2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

To my knowledge there is no authentic, written or otherwise credible evidence that "The Final Solution" was ordered by Hitler personally or otherwise a record for an order given thru the Reichskanzlei in Berlin.

The numbers esp. at Auschwitz have been officially adjusted downward in the recent past. A fact that escapes the mind of many.

Of course not. Plausible denialability.

Numbers adjusted down? Well, that just excuses the whole episode, doesn't it?

chilcutt · #**134** 05-23-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

Of course not. Plausible denialability.

Numbers adjusted down? Well, that just excuses the whole episode, doesn't it?

You seem to be fixated on the Nazi/Jewish Holocaust.

So, it is OK with you that Native Americans were destroyed by Europeans, and the United States Government?

Seems to me that it is some Americans belief that 1 American life is 1 too many to lose when it comes to the U.S,'s little military adventures.
To the point that it is just great that atomic bombs were dropped on the Japanese-100's of thousands of Iraqi's have been destroyed.

And you do not have 1 word of remorse for the original Americans who died in America's Holocaust.

Your bias is obvious, as well as being a predictable view..hence the basis for this thread. I am not sure if you realise that you are doing the same thing you accuse LaRondo of doing. Probably not.

You have played your part so very well. Bravo.

JB3 · #**135** 05-23-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaRondo

A couple of specifics.
To my knowledge there is no authentic, written or otherwise credible evidence that "The Final Solution" was ordered by Hitler personally or otherwise a record for an order given thru the Reichskanzlei in Berlin.

The numbers esp. at Auschwitz have been officially adjusted downward in the recent past. A fact that escapes the mind of many.

But why would whether or not it was personally ordered by Hitler make a difference on responsibility? Even if not directly responsible, given his message of hate towards the Jewish people and blame he placed on them all that is well publicized in things like "Mein Kampf", its logical to assume that he was neck deep in the "final solution", even if there isn't evidence that points to him direct. (which I don't know either way)

What he, as an evil man, and the Nazi party (as an evil idea) did was create a situation where other evil men could act without consequence. Whether or not there is a document signed by him that says "yes, do this" or not is irrelevant to the horror of what actually happened, and the blame they all share.

It does not lesson the atrocity, IMO, it makes it worse. The numbers don't mean anything either.

As an example, here is a quote by Vera Alexander (taken from wikipedia), a Jewish inmate at Auschwitz that looked after 50 sets of Romani twins.

I remember one set of twins in particular: Guido and Ina, aged about four. One day, Mengele took them away. When they returned, they were in a terrible state: they had been sewn together, back to back, like Siamese twins. Their wounds were infected and oozing pus. They screamed day and night. Then their parents – I remember the mother's name was Stella – managed to get some morphine and they killed the children in order to end their suffering.[27]

The scale of such a horrible act would have necessitated the execution of anyone involved, all the way up to Hitler, and thats just one pair of twins, let alone the millions that actually did die. There is no apology for this, and there should be no forgiving or lessening of the lesson the world learned. We HAVE to remember, because this type of stuff was beyond anything in history, deliberate, mechanized extermination of a people.

Certainly many atrocities happened to American Indians, but they were not rounded up by federal policy and killed as fast as possible to eliminate them as a people using the latest in industrial techniques. They were in conflict with the US government as a result of the policy of Manifest Destiny, not a scapegoat for any and all problems currently at odds in the US at the time.