Sorry to hear that. My condolences.

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The Blue Barracudas and Silver Snakes have some information as well

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TC
Current stable:
- 2004 Mazda RALLYWANKEL
- 2007 Saturn sky redline
- 2004 Explorer...under surgery.

Past: 135i, GTI, 300E, 300SD, 300SD, Stealth

again, you haven't said anything, and you haven't backed anything up.

Thats all im asking.

it seems the best you can do is condescend, and then never at any time directly support something, or give a clear indication of what you actually believe. Its annoying, but I guess its your personal problem, not mine.

Ive known several people internationally through work for years, one German, and several from Asian countries, and in the course of incidentally discussing the 2nd world war at a dinner I was at a few years back, there was a pretty universal revulsion at the Holocaust.

Therefore, In my direct personal experience with 3 outside of US people I know, I have learned that these non US people share my view.

There are plenty of international people on this forum, id be interested if they agreed with you or not.

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I firmly believe the most valuable aspect of education is understanding.
If there is no willingness to understand every educational effort is wasted, including a teacher's qualification.

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Let me see if i understand, wading through the BS here.

You imply in your previous post that my prior reference to a quote was inherently flawed because it was reproduced on wikipedia.

I call you on this, and demonstrate that the thread in question leans in the opposite direction, posting an example from the thread.

Now apparently im not understanding your attempt to educate me? Ok.

All this in response to a quote from a holocaust victim about a monster sewing a pair of 4 year old twins together. I assume you believe that didn't happen either.

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This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

I think I have said and clarified enough. If you were expecting detailed quotations and references, I understand your disappointment.
As an additional clarification, I had no intention to discuss, reason or argue The Holocaust. I think this is supported throughout the sequence of this thread.

I do regard The Holocaust as it happened with no less displeasure than most other individuals, yet I do not belief in its statue of crimes against humanity set far beyond all other crimes against humanity. I think I made that point previously.

In fact, the developments during the 60+ years in the aftermath are extremely concerning.

I rather leave it at that.

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A. nope. Never clearly, finally you have here.

B. Again, id love to realistically discuss the "developments in the 60+ years", what are they? what are you saying? What concerns you?

Dropping hints means nothing, if you have a point to make, make it, don't baffle us with BS.

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This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

I am not trying to educate you by any means. Far from it.

Sources of historical data have gone through a whirlwind of alterations, in general and in particular. Which of sources does Wikipedia resort to? Not to mention implemented censorship.
In my opinion, Wiki is a mere stepping stone into a more elaborate research, if this is desired. I do reserve the right to question or even dismiss info posted in Wiki.
At the same token, I do no longer believe in "Monsters", nor is it relevant whether I believe in it or not.

I tend not to replace knowledge or the absence of it with believe.

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Damn,, thats even worse , Im sorry you lost a brother, hopefully he was worth the space he inhabited, mine are republicans that encouraged my mother to continue being an Ignoramous, they used the winner takes all plan and got what was mine, They will buy their wives new cars with what was my share of the familys material wealth.

I think we're far beyond the topic. I am afraid I may not have the time to discuss a lengthy ongoing topic like this. I already did, throughout the past years on this forum and quite frankly, I am tired of having all the rubbish dumped on me, while the fellas doodling away on the premises of reputable German products. It's obscene in my view.

If your eyes are clear and your vision not impaired, you can see the marks in every aspect of the 1st World Western societies. It is indeed a magnificent framework of the human kind, but it is a human creation after all.
Achilles' tendon comes to mind, or the leaf on Siegfried's shoulder.

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So then what does this MEAN.

"I firmly believe the most valuable aspect of education is understanding.
If there is no willingness to understand every educational effort is wasted, including a teacher's qualification. "

This is what im talking about. Clarity would be nice.

Who says wiki is the only source of information about the holocaust? That is generally pretty accurate seems to be reasonably true, yes, but there are MOUNTAINS of documented evidence that most people have been exposed too.

You indicate that maybe actual "fact" has evolved into something worse that original with your posts, and of course you have never directly answered whether you believe any of the holocaust atrocities actually happened. If you don't believe in monsters, then do you believe that the individual who could sew a pair of 4 year olds together was a man?

That the men who invented a mass gas chamber or ovens for people were men? Or do these things not exist?

Theres a difference between recognition of the atrocity of the holocaust in order to never see it again, and focusing only on the holocaust over other atrocities that have happened, especially to native Americans. I think you are guilty of the reverse, of deciding that none of this maybe really happened as they say because you think "the German people have paid enough".

BS. Current Germans of course have nothing to do with what happened in the 30s and 40s, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore their past to protect their sensibilities. That certainly doesn't happen in the US. Mistakes throughout US history are constantly rehashed and reevaluated and restudied. I don't think the Germans ignore their past either, but for some reason you don't think we have to talk about these things anymore, which is a mistake.

As posted extremely early in the thread, there is a huge difference in documentation and living memory as far as keeping something in the public mind.

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This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

Are you saying we cant talk about German history because many of us drive German cars?

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This post brought to you by Carl's Jr.

You realize this discourse could go on for ... ?

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A generic statement regarding education. You can also consider it as my opinion.
Holocaust atrocities happened. No need to believe.
I don't know if Germans paid enough, I suppose it's up to them. Other then that, I do not accept any guilt in this matter.
Herein lies the problem. You can't talk about The Holocaust unless you chime into the tune of glorified suffering. No criticism permitted. Revision unwanted. Even punishable by imprisonment.
So far I have pretty good living memory.

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Couldn't have anything to do with the OP, could it?