Interesting guy.

The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality - YouTube

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This is what happens when you read two books and almost nothing else.

I know both books he takes his entire argument from and it didn't take me "two years of examining/study" to get through them.

I also find it interesting that his argument of "they didn't have loving, committed, adult relationships in the ancient world" so any references made by the Bible must be ignored. Especially in light of recent (within the past 30 years) research that has shown that there were plenty of "loving and committed" same-sex relationships in ancient Greece and within the Roman sphere that were MOCKED by the culture.

Matthew Vines should read his Bible instead of reading INTO his Bible. I cannot believe how many times he turns the text on it's head, saying that it reads exactly opposite of what the writer was trying to say.

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Please direct me to the sources for these loving long term homosexual relationships in the Greco-Roman world.

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I'm not at home, but I'm sure I can dig up at least a name or two of the historians in question.

EDIT: At the moment I can only remember Robert Gagnon, while not a historian is well qualified to speak on the subject. I know he has plenty of published papers which are available on his site.

EDIT 2: Louis Crompton (sp?)! I remembered another name! He is a homosexual scholar (orientation, not the study of).

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That wasn't exactly his argument. He had lots of components to his argument. One of them was that New Testament references weren't to committed homosexual relationships. Therefore, they weren't applicable to the issue of gay marriages. He never said those references should be ignored. In fact, doesn't he say that those texts are opposing lustful sexual relations and he is opposed to those things also?

He had lots of other interesting arguments. His account of the story of Sodom and Gommorah is compelling. A text can mean whatever someone thinks it means. Lots of Christian fundamentalists take that story to be about homosexuality. But instead of asking 'What do I think the text means', he asks a different question: "What did the author intend and how did readers of the period interpret the story." His answer to that, using other biblical references to the story is clear and accurate unless I'm forgetting other biblical references to the story. The ancients thought the story was about lack of hospitality, not homosexuality. That method of looking at ancient texts is a well respected scholarly method.

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I find statements by Gagnon regarding long term homosexual relations in the ancient world on his website but I can't find any argument or historical data to support that claim or to support the claim that the NT writers knew of them and had them in mind.

I did notice he had an letter critiquing an old friend of mine who is pastor of his diocese and who has much more moderate attitudes towards religion and homosexuality than Gagnon does.

Gagnon also claims that all same sex attractions are inherently narcissistic. That seems to fly in the face of the facts.

A quick search on Crompton didn't reveal anything about long term homosexual relationships in the NT world.

Read some more. That Gagnon really knows how to pound on a single drum. I noticed he takes pot shots at another old friend of mine too. Both of them I would have put in the 'conservative' camp when it comes to religion. He also fires a few shots at my old theological college, which I'd definitely put in the conservative camp.

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By the way, what I thought most interesting about him was that he was able to think through and sort out the questions, "As a person sexuality attracted to people of my own sex, if I remain a Christian and want long term loving relationships, must I live a life of self-loathing?"

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I suppose it is going to depend on what you want. If the religion forbids it and it is legal, I suppose your choice is to deny yourself and live said life or get smarter and ditch the stupid faith.

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Yeah, dumping the religion is an option. Probably not a live one for this guy. His life and his family both seem deeply rooted in the Christian tradition.

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Well, the stupid must suffer and rightly so. Pain is a great instructor. Might not teach him anything but might just teach others something

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Um, that was the underlying principle of his argument, which he contradicted himself on many times. Yes he does, but in the same breath he denies Paul's right to speak for himself. As someone who I respect has said many times "inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument." No it isn't as he only cherry picks part of the text out. HE DOESN'T EVEN READ THE WHOLE STORY.Which means your opinion means absolutely nothing now. Either the writer of the story wrote it FOR A PURPOSE or he didn't. If he wrote it for a purpose then only one interpretation is correct and all others wrong, otherwise it is a MEANINGLESS text. No, you don't get it. The problem is that he is only reading part of the story, ignoring the rest of the text and the culture and then saying "hmmm I think it means something else." And btw, he again makes the claim that the story in Genesis 18 is not speaking about "mature, loving, committed relationships".

I honestly cannot think of a more inappropriate and dishonest way of reading any text that I have seen.... oh wait, I have... he does it again in the later part of his presentation.I wonder why Mr. Vines keeps leaving verses out of his quotations when they don't fit into his argument?

If the story was about lack of hospitality then why does the account mention that after the individuals in the crowd were blinded they still attempted to grasp at the door, wearing themselves out in the process? Why are Lot's daughters refused by the mob? Any of these suggestions is made foolish by a complete study of the text and it's cultural context, and worse when you consider that other texts (both OT and NT) condemning a lack of hospitality do not make mention of this passage. The story is clearly about lust and unacceptable behavior.



Furthermore, the claim that Vine makes concerning the thought that condemnation of homosexuality in this passage was only a Medieval thought is bogus. There are plenty of references much earlier to the Medieval period concerning the condemnation of homosexual behavior in this passage, most famously by John Chrysostom in the 4th century.

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Are you saying that Paul can know of Greek philosophy but doesn't have any knowledge of the same moralists, playwrights and philosophers when they mock and condemn homosexual "unions"? As if moderate attitudes had absolutely anything to do with truth and/or Biblical living. When you break it down, same sex RELATIONSHIPS are exactly that: selfish. Really? Or am I just to read the books you want me to?

It appears as if you are the one who needs to read a little less of the likes of Boswell and more actual research. I knew of several Greek moralists commenting on "long term, committed relationships" long before I read up on this issue. Heck, where do you think we got our word for "Lesbian" from? It surely wasn't a non-applicable or unrelated location.I would have to say that there are plenty of people that need to have more than pot shots directed towards them.

Please tell me your old theological college would happen to be something along the lines of Fuller so I can laugh a little more.

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So are you a Christian? Or are you just sitting in the bleechers cheering the same sex crowd on?

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No, I'm not and no, I didn't attend Fuller. When I wrote, 'A text can mean whatever someone thinks it means." I was indicating a simple fact. People use texts for a zillion different reasons and interpret them in a zillion different ways. Whether the author intended X or Y in a text is often irrelevant to the reader. So, as a social fact, texts mean what people think they mean. This is particularly the case in religious texts. Look at the NT references to 'speaking in tongues'. It's an auditory event and we have no knowledge of what the writers of the text were referring to. But when modern speaking in tongues was invented in the early 20th century, Pentecostals took those texts to refer to the things they were doing. Millions of Pentecostals still do today yet no one knows if what they are doing is the same thing as what the original NT writers was referring to. And, from the viewpoint of the function of religion, it doesn't matter. Pentecostalism works and it means what Pentecostals say that it means.

Yes, I do think Paul could have knowledge of some issues regarding Greek ideas of homosexuality and not others. That seems pretty obvious.

I am a strong believer in sexual freedom. Not a fan of a large portion of Christian sexual theology. I am a fan of some limited Christian sexual theologians.

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Then you have little to no input in the matter. Not trying to be offensive, but just honest. Then I'm sure what I'm writing has no purpose and no thought is carried through them, right?

Either words have definite, intended meanings or they don't. Either you mean what your words imply or you don't. Your position is bankrupt as any attempt at conveying it is denied by the words themselves. No, what you keep emphasizing is that opinions can't be wrong. Opinions CAN be wrong. In essence you have said nothing. And thus have no position discussing CHRISTIAN ethics and BIBLICAL living.

I would love for you to point out to me single OT or NT author that supported selfishness. If you can't find it then you can't participate. Again, not to be rude, but unless you are a Christian and/or a scholar on the NT or OT then you have no business in the discussion, for what does the light and darkness have in common?

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