Henry Ford get help from government? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

t walgamuth · #1 08-07-2012, 10:59 AM

I was at my favorite machinist's shop and stopped to admire some flathead ford rods, which are a lovely lightweight work of art but he tells me they are stronger than the much shorter, much stouter small block Chevy rods.

He is an ardant ABBO politically.

He said sarcastically that "he (Ford) couldn't have done that by himself".

Anybody know the history of Ford and any potential government cooperation?

I did not argue but it seems pretty likely that Henry had some help from the government along the way.

As a minimum the automobile would have been very limited in its application if no roads had been built.

Then there is water and sewer and fire protection which at some point Ford may well have self provided.

Tax breaks? Property tax breaks?

cullennewsom · #2 08-07-2012, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I was at my favorite machinist's shop and stopped to admire some flathead ford rods, which are a lovely lightweight work of art but he tells me they are stronger than the much shorter, much stouter small block Chevy rods.

He is an ardant ABBO politically.

He said sarcastically that "he (Ford) couldn't have done that by himself".

Anybody know the history of Ford and any potential government cooperation?

I did not argue but it seems pretty likely that Henry had some help from the government along the way.

As a minimum the automobile would have been very limited in its application if no roads had been built.

Then there is water and sewer and fire protection which at some point Ford may well have self provided.

Tax breaks? Property tax breaks?

Quote:

I did not argue but it seems pretty likely that Henry had some help from the government along the way.

If you believe the wiki page, not so much in the way of direct assistance.

Quote:

As a minimum the automobile would have been very limited in its application if no roads had been built.

Definitely true, however, the economic benefit to the country of building roads appears to have been much greater than the expense. The gov didn't build the roads directly to benefit Ford, or any other automaker. But he certainly benefited, and certainly couldn't have afforded to install road infrastructure himself. This is what's meant by those making the argument that successful companies or individuals owe some debt to "the country" for their success.

Hatterasguy · #3 08-07-2012, 12:20 PM

The government built roads for many reasons, one of the main was defense.

The interstate system if you look closely is all set up for WW3. From tunnels under major shipping channels instead of bridges, to straight sections for jets to take off and land on, to the width which I beleive is perfect for an armored division roll down.

Pooka · #4 08-07-2012, 01:12 PM

It depends on which government you are talking about. Ford did receive help from the German government in two forms: His plants were not Nationalized during WW2, and the German government provided him with all the Slaves he needed to build trucks in Germany. And after the war the Ford factory in Germany was rather bombed out and it was the US Government that helped put it back together. But then the US put a lot of Germany back together at that time and not just Ford.

Hitler was so fond of Henry Ford that he personally authorized awarding Ford 'The Grand Service Cross of the Supreme Order of the German Eagle'. This was on July 30, 1938, which was old Henry's 78th Birthday.

Ford was able to build his factories up the old fashioned way: He paid people nothing and fired them on a whim. He came to understand that an assembly line has to have assembly people working on it so he came up with the eight hour day and ran three shifts, but it was to keep the line moving and not because he was trying to abate the suffering of his workers. Before he started the eight hour shift everyone was part-time and only worked when cars needed to be made. Ford understood he had dug himself a hole and had to climb out of it, so he made everyone full time and cut back on the number of workers. This meant he had to have a lot of cash up front to float the production of unsold cars.

So Ford borrowed a great deal to keep his place open and even cut a deal with two Jewish bankers, Brothers who had an Investment bank, that gave them a 25% ownership in Ford. The profits were so great that the Brothers started their own car line and Ford went so nuts he bought them out. They closed their bank and started making Dodge Brother's Automobiles full time. The Dodge Brothers used the Star of David as their logo on the radiator.

But as far as help from the American government goes I don't think there was any beyond the building of an infrastructure which was one of the things that helped sell cars in general.

But if you want to get off the subject of cars and trucks and tractors and would look into the Ford Tri-Motor Airplane.... Yeah, there were lots of sales to Governments all over the world at rather attractive prices. Many of these sales were in places Ford wished to build a factory; places with a lot of red tape that needed cutting before he could start business there.

But that's the way things get done, and I for one don't see what the big deal is.

Air&Road · #5 08-07-2012, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

I was at my favorite machinist's shop and stopped to admire some flathead ford rods, which are a lovely lightweight work of art but he tells me they are stronger than the much shorter, much stouter small block Chevy rods.

He is an ardant ABBO politically.

He said sarcastically that "he (Ford) couldn't have done that by himself".

Anybody know the history of Ford and any potential government cooperation?

I did not argue but it seems pretty likely that Henry had some help from the government along the way.

As a minimum the automobile would have been very limited in its application if no roads had been built.

Then there is water and sewer and fire protection which at some point Ford may well have self provided.

Tax breaks? Property tax breaks?

I have done a LOT more reading about Henry Ford than the average person. I picked up a book about him when in Jr. High that piqued my interest and read most everything I could find on him for a number of years after that.

One of his top people was a fellow named Charles Sorensen(sp?) who was known as Cast Iron Charlie. He was a metalurgist par excellance. He solved casting problems that many people considered impossible. His nick name came from his casting expertise, but he also improved the forging processes.

I expect the credit for that long, skinny rod found in the flatties goes to Charlie.

If there was ever any government subsidy of Ford, I've never read about it. Furthermore, given the independent and stubborn nature of Henry, being the old SOB that he was, I can't imagine that he would have ever accepted any help from anyone for fear that they would want a piece of the action.

Also, the government was SO small at the turn of the nineteenth to twentieth century and so covered in war debt that they had no money to loan anyway.

Another factor regarding speculation over the roads being built for Henry, the Model T was what MADE Henry and the Ford Motor Company. It was built specifically for bad, non paved roads. There were VERY few paved roads in the day of the Model T. I remember reading about a section of concrete road that was built through a town somewhere in the Midwest. People came from all over just to experience driving on a mile or so length of smooth highway.

If anything, Henry probably didn't want to see the roads paved, which would favor the cars of his competitors.

Now, local and state tax breaks sound more feasible.

Pooka · #6 08-07-2012, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

The government built roads for many reasons, one of the main was defense.

The interstate system if you look closely is all set up for WW3. From tunnels under major shipping channels instead of bridges, to straight sections for jets to take off and land on, to the width which I beleive is perfect for an armored division roll down.

The US Government has always denied the Interstate's were built for the Military. But then, when the bill to build them was first passed, it was called 'The National Defense Highway System' or something like that.

I remember in the mid 60's when I-35 was built between Dallas and Austin there was a great fanfare about it being finished and open for business. Then all the bridges were torn up because they had to be raised by about one foot. It seemed the US Army had some large guns that would not go under the underpasses as they were, so ALL of them had to be raised.

Air&Road · #7 08-07-2012, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

The government built roads for many reasons, one of the main was defense.

The interstate system if you look closely is all set up for WW3. From tunnels under major shipping channels instead of bridges, to straight sections for jets to take off and land on, to the width which I beleive is perfect for an armored division roll down.

That's right. Eisenhower considered the Interstate Highway project to be a Defense project. You wouldn't expect anything less from a General that was one of the best military planners ever.

Pooka · #8 08-07-2012, 01:29 PM

Before the Government built roads they had to know what kinds of roads to build. So they built 'Government Demonstration Roads'. One of these still exists, but it is now a residential street.

It was built in 1915 and was paid for by the local Rotary Club. It was the first improved road in the state of Oklahoma and is one mile long.

To see it on Google look for McAlester, Oklahoma, East Miami Street. It runs between S. 9th and Newton Drive.

It is narrow, but still in very good condition and still has the original roadbed.

MS Fowler · #9 08-07-2012, 01:41 PM

Its easy to make accusations when you know the conclusion before you ask the question.

I agree with Larry. I,too have done a lot of reading on Mr Ford. My library contains Charlie Sorenson's memoir, "My 40 years with Ford", as well as the 3 volume set by Nevins. Plus a few other biographies.

Ford was a member of the Lincoln Highway Assoc--a PRIVATE association that built "seed" miles of concrete roads throughout the country. The idea was that local public officials would find the funds to link these "seed" miles to each other and produce a road network.
If you know anything about the phenomenal success of the Model T, you know that it went where there were no real roads. As roads improved, people began to desire more comfort than the T could provide, and the end of the Model T was in sight. Those fancier, and more comfortable cars that replaced the Model T could never have existed except for the demand created by the T.
As for Pooka's charge, "Ford was able to build his factories up the old fashioned way: He paid people nothing and fired them on a whim." that sounds more like Soviet propaganda than fact. He did, or rather his managers did fire people readily, and often w/o much reason. He also instituted the $5 day--a wage triple the prevailing wage at the time, and that was against a flood of "experts" who predicted it would be the ruin of the company.
Mr Ford also hired blacks, many blacks. He found places for handicapped people, too.
Mr Ford was way too erratic in his decisions to allow any single label to be accurate. He allowed publication of anti Semitic propaganda, and had no use for Jewish bankers ( who had earned that hatred), yet he had many Jews working in places of significant responsibility and couldn't understand why he was labeled anti Semitic. He was a simple man with poor grammar and spelling skills, and there is some doubt he could translate a blueprint into a part in his mind, yet he was able to intuitively size gears and other structural parts almost perfectly.
He remained steadfast to his single-minded idea of " a car for the masses", and because of the determination he gets credit for putting the world on wheels. His buyers created the demand for the roads. The politicians responded to the demands of voters. Also, those buyers paid taxes on the vehicles, and the fuel, as well as registration fees. In the end, WE built the roads; not "the government".

t walgamuth · #10 08-07-2012, 01:42 PM

Thanks to all for your thoughts and contributions.

I too have read a lot about Ford but of course Henry would not have told about government cooperation and or breaks. That is why I asked.

barry123400 · #11 08-07-2012, 01:51 PM

Not much of an existing taxation structure if any in the early days might have helped him a lot. His employees used like slave labour was another major benifit. It was a bad and very hard company to work for as far as the majority of workers were concerned. He I believe was far too ruthless in many ways.

.. He really had an empire to itself running for quite a period of time. By the same token it has to be a given that he held his empire together and expanded it for a very long time as well.

In fact he alone might get some of the credit for eventually damaging it as well. His anti sematic behaviours were a real issue and still the company is known for that period. Ethically he lacked a lot in my opinion.

As he aged his autocratic nature became even further twisted. I too have read a few books on the company and man. I have never read any aspect where the federal government of the USA directly funded any component of his north american empire during the early periods. I do think the government funding may have been seriously involved with things like the willow run plant and perhaps earlier armament plants and products. I think all arangements with the government where cost plus.

As Tom mentioned any assistance in domestic passenger car and truck production may have been buried though. Certainly in many ways his industry had to have been favoured by state and municipal governments on an ongoing basis. His true strength in business during the early days might have been risk taking.

Air&Road · #12 08-07-2012, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pooka

It depends on which government you are talking about. Ford did receive help from the German government in two forms: His plants were not Nationalized during WW2, and the German government provided him with all the Slaves he needed to build trucks in Germany. And after the war the Ford factory in Germany was rather bombed out and it was the US Government that helped put it back together. But then the US put a lot of Germany back together at that time and not just Ford.

Hitler was so fond of Henry Ford that he personally authorized awarding Ford 'The Grand Service Cross of the Supreme Order of the German Eagle'. This was on July 30, 1938, which was old Henry's 78th Birthday.

Ford was able to build his factories up the old fashioned way: He paid people nothing and fired them on a whim. He came to understand that an assembly line has to have assembly people working on it so he came up with the eight hour day and ran three shifts, but it was to keep the line moving and not because he was trying to abate the suffering of his workers. Before he started the eight hour shift everyone was part-time and only worked when cars needed to be made. Ford understood he had dug himself a hole and had to climb out of it, so he made everyone full time and cut back on the number of workers. This meant he had to have a lot of cash up front to float the production of unsold cars.

So Ford borrowed a great deal to keep his place open and even cut a deal with two Jewish bankers, Brothers who had an Investment bank, that gave them a 25% ownership in Ford. The profits were so great that the Brothers started their own car line and Ford went so nuts he bought them out. They closed their bank and started making Dodge Brother's Automobiles full time. The Dodge Brothers used the Star of David as their logo on the radiator.

But as far as help from the American government goes I don't think there was any beyond the building of an infrastructure which was one of the things that helped sell cars in general.

But if you want to get off the subject of cars and trucks and tractors and would look into the Ford Tri-Motor Airplane.... Yeah, there were lots of sales to Governments all over the world at rather attractive prices. Many of these sales were in places Ford wished to build a factory; places with a lot of red tape that needed cutting before he could start business there.

But that's the way things get done, and I for one don't see what the big deal is.

There's a lot of good information and facts in this post. The only thing I would say about it is that some of the important timing is a little skewed.

To describe all this, it all needs to be put in order which determines how it all fits together.

The Dodge Brothers were very early in the history of the current Ford Motor Company. I would call it the Model T maturation era, or maybe before. Henry started wanting to buy out the Dodges and they had better sense. He squeezed them by refusing to issue any significant dividends. It seems like there was some other factor that he used to pressure them into selling. Henry was a ruthless old antisemitic SOB.

Later, in the Model A and depression years, Henry put out a newspaper for his employees. In it he put LOTS of antisemitic articles. Somehow this got into the hands of the Germans which led to the medal from Hitler that Pook mentioned.

I don't remember alot of specifics about the Ford production in Germany, but if I remember correctly, he really didn't run or have much to do with the plants in Germany. What he did do was supply tooling and I'm not sure if he was ever paid for it or not. I DO, however, remember that he also supplied tooling to Russia and never got a single cent for it. I remember reading that Model A engines were still used in Russian trucks many years after WWII, I think on into the seventies.

Henry was not driven as much by money as he was by power. His handling of money was shoddy at best. it was common for him to have his numbers scribbled on the back of an envelope. It was common to find an envelope on his desk with recievables, payables and the difference scribbled on the back.

They determined their payables and recievables periodically by weighing the invoices. They had a fudge factor that they could use that was remarkably accurate, giving them so many dollars per pound by weighing the payable stack and another factor for the recievable stack. Not too much use of computers in the twenties.

As far as the Tri Motor goes, he poured lots of money and energy into the project, and at one point there was a serious crash that triggered his pulling the plug on the whole project. BTW, Charles Lindbergh gave Henry his very first airplane ride in The Spirit of St. Louis. I might be wrong on this, it might have been his son Edsel who got his first ride in the Spirit.

Air&Road · #13 08-07-2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Thanks to all for your thoughts and contributions.

I too have read a lot about Ford but of course Henry would not have told about government cooperation and or breaks. That is why I asked.

Tom,

I think you have to take into account that he lived in a MUCH different time. People in those days had pride and most were absolutely ashamed when they were given hand outs from the government or anyone else. Taking "charity" was a huge embarassment for most people of the time.

Being the stubborn, forceful, win at all cost nature that he was, if he were kicking off a company in today's world, he might have hammered everyone he talked to for all the freebies he could get.

Air&Road · #14 08-07-2012, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

Not much of an existing taxation structure if any in the early days might have helped him a lot. His employees used like slave labour was another major benifit. It was a bad and very hard company to work for as far as the majority of workers were concerned. He I believe was far too ruthless in many ways.

.. He really had an empire to itself running for quite a period of time. By the same token it has to be a given that he held his empire together for a very long time.

In fact he alone might get some of the credit for eventually damaging it as well. His anti sematic behaviours were a real issue and still the company is known for that period. Ethically he lacked a lot in my opinion.

As he aged his autocratic nature became even further twisted. I too have read a few books on the company and man. I have never read any aspect where the government of the USA directly funded any component of his north american empire during the early periods. His true strength might have been risk taking.

Yes, from the employee's perspective he was indeed a slave driver. From HIS perspective, however, he paid them well and just felt that no one was forcing them to work there.

One of the really radical things that he did in the Model T days was to give everyone on the line a huge raise. I think it was to $5 a day, but whatever the amount, it was a HUGE amount of money for a factory worker to be paid at the time. I think it eased his conscience, but more importantly, he instantly turned the thousands upon thousands of workers into customers for his product. The other by product of this move, of course, was keeping the unions out.

Pooka · #15 08-07-2012, 02:08 PM

An odd comment above: That sounds more like Soviet Propaganda.

Is this some sort of 'I hate the truth but if I bury it under some Cold War blather the truth will not be something I must deal with'?

The only person who was harder on Ford employees that Ford was Harry Bennett, who one day decided he did not like the look of some Ford employees so he just pulled out a pistol and started firing away at them.

Wow. That sounds like something that would take place in the Soviet Union! I guess that means it didn't really take place.