200 years ago this weekend, Fort Detroit fell to the British, Canadians, and a collection of various indian tribes. Without firing a shot, General Brock was able to un-nerve Gen Hull and force him to surrender the fort and all of the provisions that it contained.
By capturing corrispondence sent from Hull to his conmmanders back in Washington, Bock was able to play on Hull's fear of Indians. Brock also had Canadain farmers dress in red coats to make Hull believe they were British regulars. Meanwhile, the Indian war chief Tecumseh, instructed his men to run through a clearing and then circle back to do the same thing over and over again leaving Hull to believe there were thousands of blood thirsty savages itching to use their scalping knives. It turned Hull into a puddle of quivering piss.

Hull was marched with his 500 of his men to Montreal but was released back to the Americans by November. He was sentenced to hang but Pres. Madison gave him a pardon.

Brock was later killed at Queenston Heights in Oct of 1812 while Tecumseh was killed at the Battle of the Thames in Oct of 1813.

Americans will say they won the war and Canadians will say the same thing but for sure it was the Indians that really lost the war.

Most history books I've read that talked about the War of 1812 called it a draw.

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I can't disagree with that but clearly the war is far more important to Canadians than it is to Americans. The US invaded Canada but was never really very suscessful in their attempts and aside from a small portion of south western Ontario in 1814, they were never really able to hold any captured territory. In that way, it's often veiwed as a draw because the original boundry remained the same after the war.
The main result of the war was that Canada gained nation hood and America gained lasting freedom from Great Britton. It still remains the longest undefended border in the world if you discount the drones, cameras on top of high towers, home land security and other assorted means to keep an eye on us.

Of course the REAL action took place down south where Gen. Jackson and his new best friend Jean Lafitte defeated the British with a bunch of worn out weapons and sneaky Pirates.

Of course, that battle was fought six months after the war ended, so maybe it doesn't really count.

Don't forget the British burning Wash DC, and their attack on Baltimore. The militia harassed the ground troops at the battle of North Point, and Fort McHenry survived the bombardment. The British gave up their intent to destroy the port of Baltimore, and we got a National Anthem ( difficult to sing as it may be.)

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The Treaty of Gent was signed on Dec 25th, 1814. The Battle of New Orleans was on Jan 6th, 1815 ( I think ) so it was a bit less than 6 months. This is one of the few battles fought during the war where only British troops were involved. Most of the other battles included militia, Indians and other regiments on both sides.

The US did very poorly during the first year of the war as they were using generals that fought during the Revolution. By 1813 they replaced most of these older men with leaders like Harrison who won the Battle of the Thames in Oct 1813.
By 1814 the Niagra region was pretty much reduced to ashes on both sides of the border. The burning of the White House was in retaliation for burning the legislative buildings at York ( now Toronto ) in April 1814. Napolean had been defeated so England had the ability to send thousands of seasoned troops to defend Canada while also attacking America. It was only because England was busy dealing with Napolean until mid 1814 that America took the decision to invade Canada in 1812.

Most of the New England States were against the war and were actually threatening to leave the union. The Northwest which is now Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky and the surrounding area wanted the war probably because they were still dealing with Indians. The view was that the British were backing their harrasment of US settlers when it was more likely a case of Indians trading with the British and the settlers encroaching upon Indian lands. Of the roughly 30,000 killed during this war, Kentucky had the greatest number of dead of any State involved in the war - perhaps 70%.

The way they teach it in schools in Louisiana is that it was 'six months' later.

So I guess the question for teachers in LA is 'six months later than what'?

It seems to be a point of pride there that Jackson had to call upon Lafitte who is still considered a hero to some in those parts. Lafitte had a real anti-government attitude, and when the Governor there put a $1,000 reward on his head Lafitte put out a $10,000 reward for the head of the Governor.

For a member of any government to turn to Lafitte for help was, at the time, unthinkable. But everyone seems to think that for Lafitte to offer his services was in keeping with his character.

I believe the USS Constitution is the winner by attrition...



'Old Ironsides' sets sail in Massachusetts - CNN.com

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They used live oak to build that ship which was many times stronger than the white oak commonly used at the time. Cannon balls pretty much bounced right off the hull. This wood was so valued for its high strenght that the British even sent raiding partys ashore in the Carolinas to harvest anything they could get.
The main killer in naval warfare at the time wasn't the actual cannon ball but was more likely to be splinters of wood after the ball cleared through a plank or beam. Live oak being much stronger, also didn't splinter as much. It would be the difference between amour plate and titanium, or at least something similar.

I think if you do a little more research you will find your description is bit inaccurate regarding "live oak". Live oak was used for and at the time was indispensable for the construction of a ships timber frame or skeleton. Most importantly the "knees" as they are called, the large slabs of timber that secure the frame timbers at the points where they meet deck timbers at 90 degrees. These large slabs are cut from the live oak trees at the places where their large low hanging branches meet the very large tree's trunk. Only in those naturally occurring sections of a live oak are where grain and fiber of the wood is aligned to form the very strong L shaped knees. The long branches can also be hewn into timber sections that make up the ships frames and the branch sections could be used for sections if the frame and ribbing in the complex bow and stern areas. Live oak because of the way they grow do not produce log sections that are very suitable for being milled into planking, the grow with their grain and fibers too twisted and curving rather than the longer straighter grained fibers needed for planking that needs to move in concert with all it nearby planking as a uniform outer sheath of a shop's hull. Live oak planks even if they where cut would be too short, too thin, and too prone to twisting and corkscrewing along the lines of their fibers.

The live oak knees, butts, and braces can be sawn and hewn to take great advantage of their natural strengths of the wood's grain and fiber. Hull planking needs to be long wide and straight of grain and fiber so that when the planks that make up the sheathing and usually on a ship there will be a couple layers oriented on different directions it acts as a large uniform entity.

Most people have no appreciation of the forces at play in a ship the size of the USS Constitution where it's frame and hull are in tension with it's rigging under enormous pressure from it's vast sail area, and they you throw in the fact that all those elements under tension and pressure are driving the entire undersea structure through the dense medium that the water is. It's why they often speak of a ship as being alive, and they truly are!

I've had the opportunity to observe the building of the Spirit of Massachusetts and before that as a young guy worked rebuilding quite a few large wooden commercial fishing boats as well a a couple the smaller(100 ton) schooners that ply the summer tourist excursion business in New England. I also participated in the building to the Rose Dorthea, a 66' long scale model of a Grand Banks fishing schooner that was the privately constructed labor of love by Santos Flyer the then third generation owner of Flyer's Boat Yard in Province town MA. The original Rose Dorthea was the winner of the then famous 1907 Fishermans Race-Lipton Cup Race staked by Sir Thomas Lipton of tea fame, which raced from Provincetown to Gloucester to Boston where even though a top section of the mast broke the Portuguese crew from P-Town won anyway! It's still remembered as a great source of local pride in what's left of that Portuguese fishing community. If any one ever gets to Provincetown the scale model is housed in what has now become the P-Town Public Library with the Rose Dorthea housed upstairs as is the silver 1907 Lipton Cup trophy, (the trophy cup was awarded to the Rose Dorthea's Provincetown Captain Marion Perry and crew by then Boston Mayor John F. “Honey Fitz” Fitzpatrick, Sweaty Teddy's grandfather, Rose Kennedy's father) If you have any interest in schooners, cod fishing and that part of US history it's a fantastic exhibit.

Photos for Provincetown Library | Yelp

Town of Provincetown, MA - Official Website - Lipton Cup

File:Rose Dorothea-Lipton's Cup-1907 Fishermen's Race.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When I was a kid you could travel along the Maine coast and see probably a couple hundred of the large fishing and coasting schooners that lay beached and half sunk rotting away. Great book with schooner stories and info schoonerman, actor, author Sterling Hayden's autobiography Wanderer, book's got a good bit of commie, socialist stuff in it also if you like that!

So what was her hull sheathing made of?

Ordinary Oak, white or red, cut from native stands of wood with very tight grain would be very very strong too. Perhaps hickory too.

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This is an excerpt from an article about the coming refurbishment of her in 2015. They are getting trees from Indiana.

Robert Murphy and Dwight Demilt of the Naval History and Heritage Command Detachment Boston, along with Rhett Steel and Trent Osman, Navy foresters, examined white oak trees at the Crane, Ind. facility.


The USS Constitution may be the oldest commissioned warship still afloat in the world, but even “Old Ironsides” needs a tuneup every so often. Earlier this month, officials from the Naval History and Heritage Command Detachment Boston traveled to Indiana to scout trees they will use for upcoming repairs to the 214-year-old warship.

The trees, specifically white oaks, are growing at the Naval Surface Warfare Center in Crane, Ind., and will remain there until 2015, when the Constitution will be placed in dry dock and restoration crews are able to inspect the ship’s hull.

“Every 20 years or so, the ship will go into drydock,” Robert Murphy, production manager for the detachment, said. “When it is in drydock, we remove the copper sheathing around the hull and inspect the hull planking that is below water line.”

Murphy said the group chose trees that are tall and straight, so they can get multiple planks out of each one. The trees will be cut, harvested, and stored in Indiana until crews have a chance to assess what needs to be replaced.

Part of the detachment’s mission is to repair and restore the Constitution to “as close to its 1812 configuration as possible,” according to its mission statement. White oak trees were specifically selected to stay true to the ship’s original material. Last time the Constitution was drydocked, between 1992 and 1995, some white oak trees from Indiana were used for the same purpose.

“White oak is great because it is rot-resistant, so it is great around water,” Margherita Desy, historian for the detachment, said. “It used to be a readily available material for shipbuilding.”

Good stuff!

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I'm sure quite a few are proud of the ship building ability and skills of the area you describe, but the fishing communities have nothing to be proud of. Nearly every species which has commercial value has been fished to it's demise, and that means the area which is was home to is now devoid of the species in numbers which will never bee seen again. The Georges bank and others were some of the richest fishing areas on the planet and now they hold nearly nothing. Why is Cape Cod called that? What happened to the cod inside the cape? As a fishermen/captain/mariner (currently up and down the east coast of the USA) I'm ashamed of the commercial fishing industry of the USA and the world.

The craftsman, not the tool is to blame.

This is kind of going off topic on a peculiar tangent but I'll go with that flow!

We all rue the day when the humble millionaire or billionaire on his multi-million dollar boat with the most expensive tackle money can buy and his crew of coolies won't be able to find any fish for his crew to catch for him and impress his young wife, his concubines and his millionaire/billionaire buddies, the tragedy the horror! Damn average guys and gals wanting to eat marine protein and maybe make a living doing so! If only rich guys with their pet crews and toy boats had been allowed to harvest the sea the world would be a much different place for everyone no doubt, but have faith you're getting there!

You've claimed you are a fisherman but you haven't described what kind of fisherman you are so that people can understand the nature and extent of the fishing you do and the fishing others have done?


You drive a large hydrocarbon based richman's toy for him as you burn many thousands of gallons of hydrocarbon fuels, producing inordinate amounts of hydrocarbon based air and water pollution to catch the boss and his guests or even his charter customers(!) not enough fish to feed a day's worth of one franchise's Filet O Fish Sandwiches. I understand what you do depends on the resources of the sea but so do and did many many thousands of others in the recent past. Why should your interest trump their's? What form of exploitation has your boat owner engaged in to support his lifestyle and your livelihood? Those are rhetorical questions needing no answer, I'm just attempting to put your outrage in some broader perspective. It's admirable but it's subjective.


And it's not like other commercially viable biomasses haven't been overexploited, it's damn hard to get a fried passenger pigeon meal anywhere these days, or sauteed`sea turtle hatchlings anymore, and after 150 years bison is just starting to make a comeback but the average carnivore has to hunt for it at Publix or Trader Joe's if he wants it on the table tonight.

Have fish populations been exploited yes, have they suffered more than all the other species that have been exploited that's debatable. Are the exploited fish species extinct I don't think that can be claimed. There is still a a commercial fishery but regulation and "stock preservation" have severly impacted it, first driving it backwards towards a much less efficient "many small boat model' combined with the implimentation of ITQ, individually Transfereable Quota system, the industry is now moving inexerably towards fewer larger harvestor corporations, sometimes those which are very vertically integrated. Places like Whole Foods, are looking to buy quota, process and merchandise fish that will only lead to monopoly conditions for consumers.

But heck, day boat cod prices are around $10+ a pound so whoever can catch them can do pretty well. And there is a very strong thriving black market in shark fins, word is $500 a pound and all you can get! But the poor folks can only eat lobster which has an at the boat price of about $2 a pound this month, so it could be worse!