Coal heating question - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #16 02-19-2013, 06:43 PM

I've burned a few large lumps of anthracite in my wood heater to no ill effect. Not a bed of anthracite. Just a few lumps I found in an old garage. Wish I had more.

Brian Carlton · #17 02-19-2013, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaoneill

as well as a state-of-the-art wood gasification boiler,

These have really intrigued me.

Can you elaborate on their performance versus a typical wood boiler and whether they truly use much less wood?

Would you consider one of these in a basement (next to the oil burner).

Do they produce way more noise than what would be tolerable in a home?

They're well up there in price ($6K and up) and I'm not sure I can justify it.

barry12345 · #18 02-20-2013, 01:24 AM

From my limited experience gassification of wood reduces consumption substantially . We had one appliance that got into that mode occasionally. If it's presence was suspected we tried not to disturb it.

If we saw a purple glow through the draft vents we knew it was online. Either we got a real clean flameless burn or a light gas explosion of no consequence instead.

If you can reliably get into that state anytime you wanted to would be very nice. It is old technology and probably was not developed previously to any great extent for home heating as all energy sources where fairly cheap.

jaoneill · #19 02-20-2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

These have really intrigued me.

Can you elaborate on their performance versus a typical wood boiler and whether they truly use much less wood?

Would you consider one of these in a basement (next to the oil burner).

Do they produce way more noise than what would be tolerable in a home?

They're well up there in price ($6K and up) and I'm not sure I can justify it.

We went from the old octopus style to a more modern air-tight furnace in the basement that cut our wood consumption from 30 cord to 20 cord a year. During those years the offspring were still here and, with what seamed like a constant stream of extended stay guests, we were heating the entire house. When we switched from wood to oil we went to hydronics for efficiency, the ability to zone different areas (not having to heat unused rooms), and comfort (more even heating). Fuel oil consumption was 1500-2000 gallons a year, depending upon the heating season and how many of the 17 rooms we were utilizing (normally between 8 & 10).

When I decided to get back into burning wood I acquired a circa 1970's coal boiler that had been converted to gas when it was installed (grates were like brand new). The intention was to construct the wood shed to hold only the 10 cord that is fun to cut and to merely take the curse off the oil bill.

I had the old cast iron boiler in the mechanical room and ready to start bolting together when I happened on an add for a gasification unit online. It became apparent that if what the manufacturers were claiming was anywhere near true, the 10 cord of wood a year would almost eliminate our fuel oil consumption. After researching thoroughly I settled on an Econoburn (made in Buffalo), rated at the time as over 90% efficient and for interior installation. The unit is all they said it was; well built, extremely well insulated, trouble free, and effficient as hell. With the gasification chamber cooking along at well over 2,000 degrees, my infrared thermometer shows the stovepipe at 150 +/-. Smoke out the chimney isn't substantially more than the vapor from the oil boiler, and after four heating seasons the inside of the chimney still looks new (zero creasote). There are, compared to a regular wood appliance, virtually no ashes; I take out a 4 gallon pail every 3-4 days, and it is more a powder than what you would think of as ashes.

This year has been old fashioned, ugly cold here in the northern Adirondacks, we are heating 12 very large (w/10' ceilings) rooms, and might burn 12 cord if we have a late spring. Last years consumption was a few sticks over 10 cord.

It makes less noise than the oil boilers, I wouldn't hesitate to have it in the basement from a safety standpoint, I just really dislike any noise, the noise of the fridge drives me nuts.

Jim

buffa98 · #20 02-20-2013, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Wouldn't there be excess build up of CO if the stove were TOO tight???

My scheme is not to burn tons of the stuff, rather just a handful here and there when I will not be present to tend to the wood.
Seems like a few strategically placed pieces on top of a bed of wood might give good return.

I'm going to burn some over the summer to see how the coal reacts in different environments.

Oh ok. A few chunks would be ok not a full blown bed. On the CO, what was explained to me was, because the carbon level was so high in anthracite(92-95%) the carbonization of the coal during the burning process allowed co to form more readily, partially due to the higher heat. I am not a chemist, so as far as the hows and whys I took the guys word for it. Our stove is a fireplace insert, once you get it going just controlling the draft is all that is needed for a long steady hot burn. Also with the coal the flue gas is a lot hotter than with wood. Again that is with straight coal.

Good luck with it.

Brian Carlton · #21 02-21-2013, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaoneill

We went from the old octopus style to a more modern air-tight furnace in the basement that cut our wood consumption from 30 cord to 20 cord a year. During those years the offspring were still here and, with what seamed like a constant stream of extended stay guests, we were heating the entire house. When we switched from wood to oil we went to hydronics for efficiency, the ability to zone different areas (not having to heat unused rooms), and comfort (more even heating). Fuel oil consumption was 1500-2000 gallons a year, depending upon the heating season and how many of the 17 rooms we were utilizing (normally between 8 & 10).

When I decided to get back into burning wood I acquired a circa 1970's coal boiler that had been converted to gas when it was installed (grates were like brand new). The intention was to construct the wood shed to hold only the 10 cord that is fun to cut and to merely take the curse off the oil bill.

I had the old cast iron boiler in the mechanical room and ready to start bolting together when I happened on an add for a gasification unit online. It became apparent that if what the manufacturers were claiming was anywhere near true, the 10 cord of wood a year would almost eliminate our fuel oil consumption. After researching thoroughly I settled on an Econoburn (made in Buffalo), rated at the time as over 90% efficient and for interior installation. The unit is all they said it was; well built, extremely well insulated, trouble free, and effficient as hell. With the gasification chamber cooking along at well over 2,000 degrees, my infrared thermometer shows the stovepipe at 150 +/-. Smoke out the chimney isn't substantially more than the vapor from the oil boiler, and after four heating seasons the inside of the chimney still looks new (zero creasote). There are, compared to a regular wood appliance, virtually no ashes; I take out a 4 gallon pail every 3-4 days, and it is more a powder than what you would think of as ashes.

This year has been old fashioned, ugly cold here in the northern Adirondacks, we are heating 12 very large (w/10' ceilings) rooms, and might burn 12 cord if we have a late spring. Last years consumption was a few sticks over 10 cord.

It makes less noise than the oil boilers, I wouldn't hesitate to have it in the basement from a safety standpoint, I just really dislike any noise, the noise of the fridge drives me nuts.

Jim

Thanks for the info. I've done the research on the Econoburn and it definitely looks like a very well made unit. The small one is up to $6K now, however.

My only additional question is the amount of wood burned. If you are burning 10 full cords (4 x 4 x 8), you're looking at nearly 5000 pieces of split logs. (16" length x 18" diameter split into 4). If the heating season is 16 weeks, this would average 44 pieces per day!! That's a full time job just to load the boiler. Is it possible that you're referring to face cords (16" x 4' x 8')?

elchivito · #22 02-22-2013, 09:15 AM

My wife's people get free coal as part of a less than advantageous deal the tribe made with operators of the nearby mine. I love the smell of mingled piñon and coal smoke up there on dark, bitterly cold nights, but am sure glad I don't have to worry about more than about a cord or two of mesquite per year here at home.

my83300cd · #23 02-23-2013, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquaticedge

Back in the days of coal heating furnaces in homes. Did home owners have to go and feed coal and rake it to keep it from plasticizing on the grates and burning them up, or was it a more automated type system?

Back in what day? I'm using a Jensen coal furnace right now, installed by a PO-burning anthracite. Its shovel fed.
When the burn goes for a long time you have to go at it with a poker and rake to break up the pile.
The grates seem to do ok, as all the air to feed the fire comes from underneath, and with enough draft they stay cool enough.
Biggest issue is chunks of coal/clinkers (ok, once it was a rock) getting jammed in the shaker grate, preventing shake down; unless you can get it free the ashes build up, the draft gets choked off and the fire dies.

jaoneill · #24 02-23-2013, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

Thanks for the info. I've done the research on the Econoburn and it definitely looks like a very well made unit. The small one is up to $6K now, however.

My only additional question is the amount of wood burned. If you are burning 10 full cords (4 x 4 x 8), you're looking at nearly 5000 pieces of split logs. (16" length x 18" diameter split into 4). If the heating season is 16 weeks, this would average 44 pieces per day!! That's a full time job just to load the boiler. Is it possible that you're referring to face cords (16" x 4' x 8')?

Full cords. Our heating season runs from mid-Oct to end of April with a night time fire required for an additional 2-4 weeks at each end of the season (not uncommon to get a frost here in mid june). I think it is safe to say that our heating season is 24-26 weeks.

Sizing a wood boiler is a critical calculation and depends to a large degree on lifestyle and expectations as well as heat load. If you are serious about going down the wood road we should have a telephone conversation. Designing and troubleshooting hydronic heating systems is a large part of my business, more than happy to assist.

Jim

jaoneill · #25 02-23-2013, 04:38 PM

While 10 cord may seem like alot to those in more moderate climates, it is half what we burned with a high efficiency, thermostatically controlled, wood furnace in the basement. An added benefit is that the boiler also heats the domestic hot water.

Jim

buffa98 · #26 02-23-2013, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by my83300cd

Back in what day? I'm using a Jensen coal furnace right now, installed by a PO-burning anthracite. Its shovel fed.
When the burn goes for a long time you have to go at it with a poker and rake to break up the pile.
The grates seem to do ok, as all the air to feed the fire comes from underneath, and with enough draft they stay cool enough.
Biggest issue is chunks of coal/clinkers (ok, once it was a rock) getting jammed in the shaker grate, preventing shake down; unless you can get it free the ashes build up, the draft gets choked off and the fire dies.

I have a Hitzer insert.

. About the same issues. About every 3 weeks let it burn do break up all the clinkers add coal, continue on.

barry12345 · #27 02-23-2013, 07:39 PM

I am kind of suprised at the amount of ash you are making. During the gasification process I thought that basically more of the wood was converted to gas. Or at least leaving less ash than a conventional wood furnace.

We have 2000 plus square feet. Basically five bedrooms a couple of washrooms living room and family room dining room and kitchen. When I built this place 30 some years ago I tried to built it for the future from a construction and insulation point of view. The exception was to avoid condensation issues in the walls etc. So it is only really tight on the inside. Needs a few draft sources dealt with as things like the patio door seals have died with age and some others as well.

. Never burn more than five cords with a simple add on furnace to the forced air one. No oil as it is not needed unless we are away longer than twelve to fifteen hours. And that is seldom in the winter. If i could buy a low cost smaller gasification unit from my past experience 2 1/2 cords would not be an impossibility I suspect. I would possibly even fabricate one but home insurance demands csa our equivelant to your ul labs approval on any unit.

Wood is about one ninety a cord locally delivered cut and split so basically there is no issue. I only get concerned about wood burning appliances if they are not reasonably efficient. As a yardstick I equate one cord of wood with about 100 gallons of fuel oil. So this house should burn about 500 gallons of oil per year if the oil furnace was used.

That is somewhat more than twice the cost of wood usually.Fuel oil is pricy here in eastern Canada although I do not know the current price. I am thinking around five dollars per gallon.

The house could be made quite a bit more efficient but the cost reward equation is not there currently. The 1000 sqaure foot attached garage has in floor heating powered by a solar system. The flywheel effect of the concrete mass is about two days without sun.

At one time we fed the heat from the solar system into the house. On decent days no other heat was required. Between the system and the solar gain through the windows it was more than adaquate on minus 10-20F days. If it was not too windy.

The last house I built seems super cheap to heat but it is so new the numbers are not in yet. It too is built for a time in the future. It has not gone through one winter yet. I tried to design it for about 100 gallons of oil or the equivelant per year. Only 1300 square feet though.

I am starting to consider in ground closed loop heat pumps as for three thousand dollars You can buy half price electricity rights in this province.

They do not advertise this but it is almost insane not to work it into your planning. Fuel oil is attrocious and about the same per btu in cost as straight electric heating if not a little higher.

Brian, once your body develops physical issues you have to consider what handling the wood is like. At some point I am fully cognizant a time will come when we will not burn any. Fortunatly at seventy I do not feel old or have any even partial disabilities. The women have been hard on me especially in my younger days so I have no ideal of why I am still in great physical shape. I know it cannot last but it is what it is presently. Not that I am complaining about it.

jaoneill · #28 02-24-2013, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345

I am kind of suprised at the amount of ash you are making. During the gasification process I thought that basically more of the wood was converted to gas. Or at least leaving less ash than a conventional wood furnace.

There is very little ash as compared to a conventional appliance. By volume, half of the ash I take out is what one would call "conventional ash" that builds up in the ends of the upper chamber, out of the path of the forced air stream. The balance, the result of the complete combustion of gases in the secondary chamber, is the residue from the bulk of the fuel, and only amounts to a dozen double handfuls of very fine powder for each cord +/- burned.

Jim

Brian Carlton · #29 02-24-2013, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry12345

Brian, once your body develops physical issues you have to consider what handling the wood is like. At some point I am fully cognizant a time will come when we will not burn any. Fortunatly at seventy I do not feel old or have any even partial disabilities. The women have been hard on me especially in my younger days so I have no ideal of why I am still in great physical shape. I know it cannot last but it is what it is presently. Not that I am complaining about it.

Point.

We're currently at $3.50 for oil and about $200/cord of wood. I suppose I could heat the house with six cords over the winter at a cost of $1200. The oil (about 500 gallons) is $1750. The differential isn't great enough to spend $6K on one of those units even thought they are tempting.

What I might do is to get a natural gas tankless heater. I have gas in the house and I could completely shutdown the oil furnace for about six months. That would save about 200 gallons of oil and the payback for such a unit would be very quick.

jaoneill · #30 02-24-2013, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

Point.

We're currently at $3.50 for oil and about $200/cord of wood. I suppose I could heat the house with six cords over the winter at a cost of $1200. The oil (about 500 gallons) is $1750. The differential isn't great enough to spend $6K on one of those units even thought they are tempting.

What I might do is to get a natural gas tankless heater. I have gas in the house and I could completely shutdown the oil furnace for about six months. That would save about 200 gallons of oil and the payback for such a unit would be very quick.

Oil here is within pennies of $4 gal. If you have gas, a gas fired boiler might be worth considering. Where available here in the North Country, gas is substantially cheaper than oil. Tankless domestic water heaters offer considerable savings but have their limitations. Think twice if you have water quality issues, particularly hard water.

Jim