Under pressure due to the www, the Mormon clergy blinks
 

A Top Mormon Leader Acknowledges the Church ‘Made Mistakes’
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
Published: October 5, 2013

One of the top leaders in the Mormon Church acknowledged in an address to the church’s global membership on Saturday that past leaders had “made mistakes” that had caused some Mormons to have doubts, an admission that amounts to a significant change in tone in the leadership’s approach to Mormons who question, dissent or defect from the church.

“We respect those who honestly search for truth,” President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, second counselor in the church’s top governing body, the first presidency, said in the speech.

The church has in the past excommunicated prominent scholars and even low-profile members who publicly voiced doubts about its history or theology, and many Mormons who have lost their faith have been shunned by their friends and family. But recently, with some Mormons taking to the Internet to share their doubts, leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which now claims 15 million members, have been confronted with a bigger problem they could no longer ignore.

“We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of church history — along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable and divine events — there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question,” Mr. Uchtdorf said, speaking to 20,000 Mormons gathered for the 183rd semiannual general conference in Salt Lake City, and millions more watching telecasts and over the Internet.

On Saturday evening, about 200 women, according to The Associated Press, staged a demonstration outside to protest the church’s male-only priesthood, demanding entrance to a men’s-only priesthood meeting.

Mr. Uchtdorf, a Mormon from Germany who is considered by those who study the church to be a potentially modernizing influence, did not specify what leaders or mistakes he was referring to.

But he said: “To be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine.”

He said it was wrong for other Mormons to assume that those with doubts “have been offended or lazy or sinful.” He said that the church “honors personal agency,” and that the church’s first prophet, Joseph Smith, “had questions and sought answers.”

Scott Gordon, president of FAIRMormon, a group that defends the church, said: “I believe this is the clearest statement made in recent times that church leaders have made mistakes in the past. Coming from a member of the first presidency, the highest level of leadership in the church, makes it especially powerful.”

from: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-top-mormon-leader-acknowledges-the-church-made-mistakes.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0#h[]

Mr. Uchtdorf, a Mormon from Germany who is considered by those who study the church to be a potentially modernizing influence, did not specify what leaders or mistakes he was referring to.

Well, I think that's another mistake . . .

religion is the bane of humanity...

As most of you know, I was raised in the Mormon church. I've long since made peace with the whole thing, there were much worse ways to be raised IMO. There was a tight knit community feel to the church for me, especially in NM where I lived til age 15.

But it's founding was way past weird and shady. Joseph Smith was a good looking young guy who was commanded by God to have sex with many women. What luck! The whole Golden Plates thing is way dicey, Smith said the 'Angel Moroni' reclaimed them when they were done with the translation, which in itself was suspect. When one of the translated portions was stolen, Smith re-translated them with the Urim and Thummim, two crystal-like stones that he looked through to get the translation. Then when the stolen part was later recovered, it was substantially different from the second translation. The words "Urim and Thummim" themselves were likely borrowed from the Jewish tradition.

I kinda feel for a lot of the people in it as they've become fond of their social support group but at its core is a bogus hodge-podge of theology cobbled together by Smith and cronies.

'dicey' and 'suspect' are very kind. You're right about the social support group. Religious social support groups tend to be pretty successful.

As much as the church bugs me, I have to wonder if it isn't a good thing when all is said and done. The missionaries beat the bushes for lost souls and bring them into a vastly expanded social life.

I dunno . . .

Yes, some lost souls get a better social life. Some others just exchange one social life for another. Despite the obvious benefits, I can't see any compelling reason to endorse the magical thinking that frequently accompanies these kinds of religion.

I attended a number of Mormon events with some friends of mine. The only thing that seemed weird was how they all looked at each other at times when one subject or another came up since they had special knowledge that an outsider such as myself was not allowed to know.

They stopped inviting me when I attended a conference concerning some historical artifacts that had been dug up over in Egypt in some tomb. There were symbols found on the walls that no one had ever seen and this caused the folks there to gasp in amazement. Afterwards they asked me if I understood the meanings behind the symbols.

I told them that since the only symbols shown that night were Masonic in nature then yes, I understood them. They were sure I was mistaken so they pulled out a secret book with the symbols that Joe Smith had laid out for those in the upper Priesthood. They were all Masonic symbols.

I pointed out that Smith had been a Mason, and that only other Masons would have known about these symbols since they were somewhat secretive, but there was nothing special about them. They were just a form of communication between members.

Things went downhill pretty quickly after that. I didn't get invited to any more functions and they just sort of dropped out of sight.

Smith was adroit at co-opting religious symbols and words, such as the Urim and Thummim I mentioned. I don't think taking belief in that stuff as the guiding force in your life is a good thing by any means.

Ironically, some of their practice was well founded. Their 'word of wisdom' thing strikes me as sound - meat a couple of times a week only, no coffee, tea, alcohol, or tobacco (the coffee and tea thing a bit much), and also fasting now and then.

I've read that in their early days in Missouri and Illinois they would build up these beautiful towns in short order. Supposedly a lot of the reason they were able to attract multiple wives is that they were so industrious and prosperous. My sister and BiL were in the Tab choir for about 12 years - saw them twice - it was surprisingly moving.

But yeah, I'm happy to be shut of them. Strange attitude in most of the scene. Oh well . . .

Not a very attractive offer, is it?

Kind of reminds me of the great con man, Werner Erhard, of the 1970s:

From a book on him:

" Before he abandoned his wife and children, changed his name to Werner Erhard, moved to California and began promoting his self-awareness programs, known in the 1970s as est and later as the Forum, Jack Rosenberg was a car salesman in Philadelphia.

Inspired by a self-help course called Mind Dynamics, by Napoleon Hill's book, Think and Grow Rich , by Scientology and cybernetics, and advised by a skilled tax lawyer, Erhard launched est in 1971. And for 20 years he reigned as guru of the "human potential movement."

According to freelance journalist Pressman, the womanizing, charismatic and demanding Erhard collected tens of millions of dollars from 500,000 people who took his courses. Eventually lawsuits, desertions among his coterie and the rise of new New Age mind-improving programs ended Erhard's empire and in 1991, owing millions to the IRS and others, he went into exile in Mexico. Pressman here cuts into him with surgical precision. "
Copyright 1993 Reed Business Information, Inc.

He's actually dying of cancer in Germany these days.

Rather telling that he was a used car salesman...

I knew a Werner convert, we used to do " languaging" together, as he called it.

In other words, we had conversations. He couldn't just say: " We talked."

I have always disliked people who make up special terms in a vain and stupid attempt to make them look "intellectual" "in the know" and "exclusive."

Most of them are victims of their own con. They just need to be exposed to the young and the inexperienced so they are not scammed.

Generally the more you make me feel good the more the suspicious part of my mind screams for attention. I am highly leery of people that are charming and suave. I know they developed that skill for a reason. Today you might be ok. Tomorrow you might thr to charm your way and I end up under the bus. Hence I avoid anyone sounding too good.

This isn't anything new. Honestly it's the same old story they've been telling for the past 20 odd years.

"Our leaders are fallible men".



And if anyone wants to have a laugh at some of the most ridiculous scholarship ever published, go look at the FAIR site.

As someone in the midst of LDS quite often, you'd be hard pressed to find more than a handful of LDS who actually know what D&C 89 actually says about the consumption of meat.

...and even fewer those who actually listen to it.

Depends on whether or not you think good health is attractive.
Exactly right. Most Mormons are up front about no tea, coffee, alcohol, or tobacco - wear it like a badge - and the rest they ignore or as you say, are ignorant of it.

I don't fully agree with you on FAIR. Some of their work is sound IMO. They do go off the rails now and then, happens a lot with true believers.

I like the excuses of "well, the water wasn't good in Jesus' time..." when someone brings up the issue of alcohol.

And the little fact that the WoW wasn't exercised as a rule until the 20th century. There's evidence of spittoons in the SLC temple around 1900. We know that JS had a bar, drank beer, smoked cigars and chewed tobacco AFTER the WoW was "revealed." And BY smoked cigars and owned a distillery in Utah.

Way too much fun. Some, you're right. But "some" doesn't really require anyone to listen to them for "most" of the time.

Then again they were better than FARMS..... which isn't saying much.

Is that a boolean question? Do I think it is a good idea for me to eat 3 Big Macs a meal, 3 times a day? No. Do I think I want to have good health if I had to eat grass all day long? No. Somewhere in between? Sure. But to tell me that I can only eat meat a couple times a week, no coffee or tea (not that I would even let tea touch my lips), no tobacco and fasting? No thanks. Even if I could lead a healthy life like that, I wouldn't want to be forced to do this, that or the other because some religious figure says so. That is a decision that I take with advice from my medical practitioner and not some silly deity or the interpretations of what some deity says. Why would I want to be restricted by some religion that tells me I cannot eat pork or beef, for instance? Why should I be told that I cannot eat meat on a certain day for religious purposes? How is that attractive?

No one is being forced to eat or not eat anything, Mormons or otherwise. Do what you want, my study and experience tells me that meat every day is not the best way to go. I tried to be mostly vegan for a while and it was not fun. I do eat vegan meals semi-regularly. The theory I've heard that makes some sense is that one's body secretes various digestive enzymes and if you eat too much of the same thing day in and day out, those particular enzymes will not be in the most abundant of supply.

I look at the sort of diet that was available to the critters we evolved from, the diet that was available to them for hundreds of thousands of years (well millions) and it wasn't nearly as complex as what we modern humans can lay our hands on. Our organs evolved with that being what they were challenged with and I don't think we moderns are going to modify that in a century's time.

Pure carnivores ate meat and virtually nothing else but their digestive systems and teeth are significantly different that we apes. Hunter/gatherers ate meat when they could get it but a lot of other stuff as well, of course. I suspect when they killed a large animal, the tribe ate mostly meat for a few days. During berry season, mostly berries and so on. Our digestive systems are not well designed for the sort of really complex meals that modern life makes possible.

Your theory could be right but there are 2 things.

1. This is a health issue. You are well versed in your crazy beliefs but unless they are also health studies, stick to conning the gullible and leave the health issues to professionals. They might give the same advice but they are professionals at health, you are NOT. They don't give me spiritual advice and you don't give me medical.

2. I don't plan to live forever. Just a little past retirement, where my useful life is over and when the health goes south, it's check out time. Let nature take it's course. To that end, I don't mind indulging myself a bit more even if it shortens my life. Makes no sense to me to try extend it any more.

Dude, dude, chill the F out. My crazy beliefs? It is pretty well established that modern medical science has been barely interested in nutrition for some time now.

I too realize that I will not live forever. The issue for me isn't living til I'm 108, but rather: can I get wood w/o Ciallis or the like AND more importantly, can I pull wenches? Hot babes like hot guys and there is no reason a guy at my age (61) can't pull babes. I still do it with some success and I want to maintain and improve that, thank you very much.

No, not you. Referring the comment to the crazy beliefs of the "Spiritual Leaders".

Who cares? Cialis, Levitra or Viagra (problem with blue spots) is like adding a supercharger to a car. Who cares if it is natural or not? I'd rather have a modified car that makes 600HP than a car that comes from the factory making 200HP without modification. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL6wbsGx9qw

Yeah and I'd rather have the supercharging naturally. There's more than chemically enhance rigidity to pulling wenches.

Hell with nature. Nature isn't all that nice. If I could have a genetically engineered kid, I probably would go for it. To a point pulling wrenches is ok but only if I don't have to do it. Once I have to do it, it becomes work. Then it is no fun.

Pulling WENCHES, as in do the babes come your direction, pull as in magnetic pull.

wench
/wenCH/
noun: wench; plural noun: wenches
1.
a girl or young woman.

My bad. I saw wrench and didn't think many people used that word. Unfortunately, what we have is "ho", "b1tch", "slut" in the ghetto that creeped out to the world.

"Pull wenches" is not a phrase one hears often in the world. I had a friend in Seattle who had interacting with women down to a science (one he did well with) and he used it.