OK. Karma's a b! tch. - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Dudesky · #31 12-10-2013, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simpler=Better

I can watch this exchange all day

Kinda funny, he doesn't care but takes the time to respond.

Idle · #32 12-10-2013, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Are you implying that ONLY Christians use media events to stir a political campaign? Surely, you are not that naive, surely.

Having lived in Oklahoma for many years and watched this unfold over the course of almost fifteen years I can say yes, this was Christians, actually Republicans wrapping themselves in the Bible, using the media to stir a political campaign.

The Republicans control both Houses here and had enough votes to override the Democratic Governor's veto. Overriding his veto on this issue was the issue, at least according to Republican House and Senate members I spoke to about this. I did bring the matter up with Governor Henry, but he said he decided to sign the bill and see where it went. It is worth mentioning here that Henry was term limited at the time, so this act could not be used against him during his next election.

So he signed the bill into law and deprived them of a campaign issue. Then someone had to cough up the money to put the monument up since it had to be done with private funds.

This monument is a clear violation of the Oklahoma Constitution and will not stand up to a court case. The Oklahoma Constitution is quite direct on this matter, and every instance of a monument such as this on public property has been found to be in violation of the OC after being challenged in court and ordered removed.

The only solution is to put a ballot measure forward to allow such monuments on public property, but Republicans live in fear of every group showing up wishing to place their monument on the Capitol grounds.

All in all this has been a multi-year campaign to paint Democrats as anti-religion. It has failed, and the zeal to place these monuments on every available space has waned.

Idle · #33 12-10-2013, 03:24 PM

I would like to add that a well funded legal group out of Texas promised to defend these markers against all court cases. They bragged that they had never lost a case and that to defy them was futile.

I don't know if they are still active, but I do not know of any case they defended in Oklahoma went their way.

A recent case in McAlester, Oklahoma was not defended by this Texas group, but those that did defend it were no more successful in forcing the city to abide by their desires. Despite the death threats and slander aimed the Lawyers that took the city's position the city prevailed and religious symbols that had been placed on city property were removed.

davidmash · #34 12-10-2013, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudesky

Kinda funny, he doesn't care but takes the time to respond.

I care about the issue, not your opinion. I am not going to let your false statements go unchallenged.

davidmash · #35 12-10-2013, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle

I would like to add that a well funded legal group out of Texas promised to defend these markers against all court cases. They bragged that they had never lost a case and that to defy them was futile.

I don't know if they are still active, but I do not know of any case they defended in Oklahoma went their way.

A recent case in McAlester, Oklahoma was not defended by this Texas group, but those that did defend it were no more successful in forcing the city to abide by their desires. Despite the death threats and slander aimed the Lawyers that took the city's position the city prevailed and religious symbols that had been placed on city property were removed.

I do not understand why the people in OK let their government waste what I imagine is a substantial amount of money to fight a battle that has no hope of winning.

MS Fowler · #36 12-10-2013, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle

Having lived in Oklahoma for many years and watched this unfold over the course of almost fifteen years I can say yes, this was Christians, actually Republicans wrapping themselves in the Bible, using the media to stir a political campaign.

The Republicans control both Houses here and had enough votes to override the Democratic Governor's veto. Overriding his veto on this issue was the issue, at least according to Republican House and Senate members I spoke to about this. I did bring the matter up with Governor Henry, but he said he decided to sign the bill and see where it went. It is worth mentioning here that Henry was term limited at the time, so this act could not be used against him during his next election.

So he signed the bill into law and deprived them of a campaign issue. Then someone had to cough up the money to put the monument up since it had to be done with private funds.

This monument is a clear violation of the Oklahoma Constitution and will not stand up to a court case. The Oklahoma Constitution is quite direct on this matter, and every instance of a monument such as this on public property has been found to be in violation of the OC after being challenged in court and ordered removed.

The only solution is to put a ballot measure forward to allow such monuments on public property, but Republicans live in fear of every group showing up wishing to place their monument on the Capitol grounds.

All in all this has been a multi-year campaign to paint Democrats as anti-religion. It has failed, and the zeal to place these monuments on every available space has waned.

I have no doubt that you have many examples of how Christians have done what you said, but it misses the point. Don't you agree that anyone, using government to promote an agenda is equally wrong?

Idle · #37 12-10-2013, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I have no doubt that you have many examples of how Christians have done what you said, but it misses the point. Don't you agree that anyone, using government to promote an agenda is equally wrong?

OF course I do. But your comment seemed to ask for an example of where Christian principals had been used only for political gain. I have heard it from the horse's mouth on this issue and wished to give the example you asked for.

And to tell the truth I know of only this instance where the Christian faith has been openly exploited for political gain, but then I am close to the situation, see the main players on a regular basis, and understand their motivation.

They are not shy about their motives: This is a proven way to pick up votes at a limited expense. The state picks up all the costs and the majority of voters here are Christians so it is an easy path to take. All that is required is a lack of ethics, and I can assure you there is no shortage here of politicians with that quality.

Idle · #38 12-10-2013, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I do not understand why the people in OK let their government waste what I imagine is a substantial amount of money to fight a battle that has no hope of winning.

The short answer is that education has always been of low importance. There are currently only two school district in the state that are considered to be worth attending.

At one time the state policy on education was that boys needed only enough education to work in the oil fields and girls needed only enough education to become a good wife. Or, in other words, boys needed no more than an education through grade eight and girls grade six. And this is not a joke or my opinion. This was established state policy.

It is not uncommon here to find older adults who attended school only until grade two.

At one time the highest per capita of PhD's in the world was in Bartlesville, Oklahoma because this was the headquarters of Phillips 66. Uncle Frank, as Frank Phillips was known, insisted on quality education since it is impossible to discover new chemicals or compounds without a quality education but this was the exception to the rule.

Technical schools are well established here. One suggestion made during the last elections was why can't anyone set up a system of technical schools since not everyone is cut out for University? Oklahoma has such a system that works very well and serves the needs of many students, but this system has only been around for about twenty years and many of the grads seek employment out of state.

Our new Governor, Mary Fallin, upon taking office appointed a friend of hers to oversee education in the state. Her suggestions have been so ridiculed that many school districts are in open revolt against the state. School districts feel they were finally pulling out of the dark ages and do not wish to return to the days when they were told to dumb it down and not waste money on education.

But that is the long answer. The short answer to your question is that it makes them feel good. At least that is what a lot of people tell me when I ask them the same question.

cmbdiesel · #39 12-10-2013, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I think it is interesting that none of the usual suspects have come to the defense of the Satanic group based on religious freedom.

I would post a picture of some Satanic Art that I would like to see on the courthouse lawn, but the last time I posted a picture like that I got a warning...

MS Fowler · #40 12-10-2013, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle

OF course I do. But your comment seemed to ask for an example of where Christian principals had been used only for political gain. I have heard it from the horse's mouth on this issue and wished to give the example you asked for.

And to tell the truth I know of only this instance where the Christian faith has been openly exploited for political gain, but then I am close to the situation, see the main players on a regular basis, and understand their motivation.

They are not shy about their motives: This is a proven way to pick up votes at a limited expense. The state picks up all the costs and the majority of voters here are Christians so it is an easy path to take. All that is required is a lack of ethics, and I can assure you there is no shortage here of politicians with that quality.

Christians are as politically naive as almost any other group--and can be taken advantage of by politically shrewd hustlers.

P.C. · #41 12-11-2013, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Christians are as politically naive as almost any other group--and can be taken advantage of by politically shrewd hustlers.

Who themselves may also proclaim to be Christians.

Jim B. · #42 12-11-2013, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simpler=Better

I can watch this exchange all day

Be sure and put ALL the snakes back in their sacks after the worship service is ended.

That is all

Dudesky · #43 12-11-2013, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I care about the issue, not your opinion. I am not going to let your false statements go unchallenged.

..

Quote:

Well, it was Dr. Duncan MacDougall of Haverhill, Massachusetts who first attempted to weigh the human soul. In 1907, he placed 6 dying patients on a homemade scale, which also acted as a bed for the patients. More recently in Dan Brown’s novel, “the Lost Symbol”, there is a segment that explains how “The Institute of Noetic Science” uses noetics to weigh the human soul. After tests on terminally ill patients, it came across that immediately after death, a person’s weight dropped.

davidmash · #44 12-11-2013, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Christians are as politically naive as almost any other group--and can be taken advantage of by politically shrewd hustlers.

How are Christians being taken advantage of in OK?

davidmash · #45 12-11-2013, 11:12 AM

Weight of a Soul

You would think that with such an important discovery someone in the religious field would have tried to prove it in a clinical situation and have it peer reviewed.

As with religion it's self, we are just supposed to accept this 'soul' on faith. Faith is not proof. Proof is proof.